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OK how about another approach?
All the oil out there for us to buy (except Driven) is lacking in moly, which as I understand it, is not a good thing for the tribofilm lubrication going on. So would adding MoS2 or Ceratec be of benefit since according to one of your earlier posts, it increases moly levels?
Thanks for the time btw!
OK how about another approach?
All the oil out there for us to buy (except Driven) is lacking in moly, which as I understand it, is not a good thing for the tribofilm lubrication going on. So would adding MoS2 or Ceratec be of benefit since according to one of your earlier posts, it increases moly levels?
Thanks for the time btw!
Interested in Jake’s response, but I’m guessing he’ll confirm it’s still not a good idea as it will mess up the carefully formulated add pack in the oil, breaking its balance, and thus decreasing the efficacy of the oil for the way it was designed to operate in the engine.
The Moly is supposedly a solid lubricant that does not mix into the oil. As I understand it, it has no affect on the oil or the additive package. I would trust Jake before others. But the chemistry confuses me.
I maintain my position that the only time to utilize an oil additive, is never.
Sometimes just before I’m going to disassemble an old engine, or an M9X that has had bore scoring (and is filled with nasty soot) I will run a dose of sea foam and marvel mystery oil in the engine oil to break the mess down so things are easier to clean.
Other than that, I don’t use any additives, and I won’t.
Moly isn't the only available friction modifier available. There are a variety of fatty acids to choose from like glycerol esters. Just remember that ~80% of the additive package added to the base oil consists of Detergents and Dispersants. I wouldn't want to upset the balance of the formulation as is. I like techron though a tank before an oil change. I am not impartial though.
No Moly in DT40. See the VOA here (this voa is dated, so it may have been revised). Not an exact comp, but you can see the moly on the 0W40 VOA. The M1 5W50 is even more robust.
Outdated information. The 2019+ DT40 has 600 ppm of moly (SPEEDiagnostix 2019). M1 FS X2 5w50 has 80 ppm moly (WIX and Blackstone VOA this year).
No Moly in DT40. See the VOA here (this voa is dated, so it may have been revised). Not an exact comp, but you can see the moly on the 0W40 VOA. The M1 5W50 is even more robust.
Originally Posted by Petza914
See the DT40 UOA I posted. DT40 has lots of Moly. Mobil 1 has hardly any of any. I've had Mobil 1 break down to a much thinner viscosity in as little as 3,000 miles so unless that's your change interval, use something else.
Originally Posted by Petza914
That's the old formulation of DT40 (I notice your report was from 2011). The current version is what I posted, and after 5000 miles of use.
Originally Posted by hatchetf15
Outdated information. The 2019+ DT40 has 600 ppm of moly (SPEEDiagnostix 2019). M1 FS X2 5w50 has 80 ppm moly (WIX and Blackstone VOA this year).
Since we're on this topic, does anybody know when Driven switched from the old formula to the current formula? Not that I should be worried since I just switched to DT40 and bought 10 quarts from Summit last month.
The Moly is supposedly a solid lubricant that does not mix into the oil. As I understand it, it has no affect on the oil or the additive package. I would trust Jake before others. But the chemistry confuses me.
I've read that Moly (in the form of Molybdenum Disulfide - as in MOS2) can fall out of suspension in oil (but is used successfully in grease.) If it falls out of suspension - where does it end up accumulating?
It would be great to see an evaluation of MOS2 in an engine using an A40 motor oil. If MOS2 is not compatible with A40 engine oils (as has been asserted in this thread), it seems like that would be reflected in some aspect(s) of a used oil analysis report.
The form of Moly that supposedly does remain in suspension in motor oil is Molybdenum Dialkyldithiocarbamate (MoDTC). I have also read (but not confirmed) that Driven motor oils use that form of Moly.
I've read that Moly (in the form of Molybdenum Disulfide - as in MOS2) can fall out of suspension in oil (but is used successfully in grease.) If it falls out of suspension - where does it end up accumulating?
It would be great to see an evaluation of MOS2 in an engine using an A40 motor oil. If MOS2 is not compatible with A40 engine oils (as has been asserted in this thread), it seems like that would be reflected in some aspect(s) of a used oil analysis report.
The form of Moly that supposedly does remain in suspension in motor oil is Molybdenum Dialkyldithiocarbamate (MoDTC). I have also read (but not confirmed) that Driven motor oils use that form of Moly.
I've played with MOS2 but have done so with reticence. I've put in one can rather than 1.5.
I have used Mobil One Euro Blend 0-40 for the 102K miles under my stewardship (near 137K miles total). 21 changes. 7.5 quarts out each time. 7.5 quarts back in. No additions in between 5K mile changes.
The MOS2 does not suspend in the oil. When filling with new oil I put a 5 quart jug in to start. I then pour a can of Moly into the now empty jug and fill that jug to the 2.5 quart line. The MOS2 is dark and stays at the bottom of the jug. So I shake the jug to suspend it as I pour in the jug.
I'm sure that there is enough vibration to keep the MOS2 flowing through the motor during operation.
The old oil does seem a bit darker when I use MOS2. That would make sense. UOAs indicate a bit more Moly when I have used MOS2 but no other differences. So I'm not realizing any interaction.
To be fair, I have not acquired adequate data for this to be scientific and I have not flushed the system to insure my values are not cross contaminated.
I've never felt a difference in the motor or power or smoothness that some feel they have. So it hasn't done anything for me. And with Jake's comments I'm inclined to leave the cans I have on the shelf unopened.
I've played with MOS2 but have done so with reticence. I've put in one can rather than 1.5.
I have used Mobil One Euro Blend 0-40 for the 102K miles under my stewardship (near 137K miles total). 21 changes. 7.5 quarts out each time. 7.5 quarts back in. No additions in between 5K mile changes.
The MOS2 does not suspend in the oil. When filling with new oil I put a 5 quart jug in to start. I then pour a can of Moly into the now empty jug and fill that jug to the 2.5 quart line. The MOS2 is dark and stays at the bottom of the jug. So I shake the jug to suspend it as I pour in the jug.
I'm sure that there is enough vibration to keep the MOS2 flowing through the motor during operation.
The old oil does seem a bit darker when I use MOS2. That would make sense. UOAs indicate a bit more Moly when I have used MOS2 but no other differences. So I'm not realizing any interaction.
To be fair, I have not acquired adequate data for this to be scientific and I have not flushed the system to insure my values are not cross contaminated.
I've never felt a difference in the motor or power or smoothness that some feel they have. So it hasn't done anything for me. And with Jake's comments I'm inclined to leave the cans I have on the shelf unopened.
There has to be a way for someone (former chemist amongst the group here) to formulate an oil additive with Molybdenum Dialkyldithiocarbamate (MoDTC) that plays well with Porsche approved A40 oils. Since the A40 additive package seems to be consistent from brand to brand, how could this be an impossible task to accomplish?
I nominate Bruce from Philly to take this entrepreneurial task on. From the proceeds, he can dump that high mileage .2 for a Carrera GT.
Did you know that there are ONLY 4 manufacturers of oil and fuel additives in the world? One of those 4 is Lubrizol which is owned by Warren Buffet and the source of Driven's additive package.
The time that people spend on all of this amazes me.
I'm just about to mix up a 65% base oil, 35% additive package oil for my Sumebore cylinder break in oil development. I have one pail of base oil, and another with the additives, straight from the supplier. This is done in a stainless steel milk bucket with a drill, and an agitator that's designed to mix sheetrock.
Once we get this close, then it goes to have a proper blend made, so then it can see a lot more test time, and ultimately go to market. I did the same exact thing with Driven (I am doing the current development on my own) when the DT 40, DT50, XP9, XP6, and GP-1 oils were being developed dating back to 2007. This takes a ton of time, miles, and dyno data, along with UOA to get right. Through all of that, M9X engines were utilized as the test mules.
As an example, in 2012 Charles from LN and I crawled into an FSI powered Boxster, and drove to Edmonton AB Canada to instruct a Porsche engine class. We drove 8,800 miles in 10 days, just to collect one damn oil sample.
That's what I do, we develop things so people don't have to wonder, guess, or screw things up.
If you see me doing something, there's a reason why I am doing it. If you don't see me doing something, there's an even bigger reason why I'm not doing it. Keep the additives and concoctions up to us who don't give a damn if we blow something up. Failure is just another day at the office, the only difference is I look at failure, and smile.
I have used Liqui Moly MoS2 (or Ceratec) for years and will continue to do so as I like what I hear and see.
It's good to see you speaking up Tony. I've been waiting for your viewpoint. You are the one who dragged me kicking and screaming to MoS2!!!
I think you are much more sensitive and aware of motors and cars than I am. I appreciate you reporting your experiences.
I know you've talked about idle and noise. I also know you have the background in chemistry and engineering to give this topic a good discussion. I'd love to hear more from you.
The time that people spend on all of this amazes me.
I'm just about to mix up a 65% base oil, 35% additive package oil for my Sumebore cylinder break in oil development. I have one pail of base oil, and another with the additives, straight from the supplier. This is done in a stainless steel milk bucket with a drill, and an agitator that's designed to mix sheetrock.
Once we get this close, then it goes to have a proper blend made, so then it can see a lot more test time, and ultimately go to market. I did the same exact thing with Driven (I am doing the current development on my own) when the DT 40, DT50, XP9, XP6, and GP-1 oils were being developed dating back to 2007. This takes a ton of time, miles, and dyno data, along with UOA to get right. Through all of that, M9X engines were utilized as the test mules.
As an example, in 2012 Charles from LN and I crawled into an FSI powered Boxster, and drove to Edmonton AB Canada to instruct a Porsche engine class. We drove 8,800 miles in 10 days, just to collect one damn oil sample.
That's what I do, we develop things so people don't have to wonder, guess, or screw things up.
If you see me doing something, there's a reason why I am doing it. If you don't see me doing something, there's an even bigger reason why I'm not doing it. Keep the additives and concoctions up to us who don't give a damn if we blow something up. Failure is just another day at the office, the only difference is I look at failure, and smile.
And this is why I'll continue to follow the brains.... not that there isn't other smart people out there. It's just that these guys have more resources and openly stand behind what they have developed and sell.
03-09-2021, 05:43 PM
