silver_tt

Do not worry about the Zinc. The mPAO level is much higher in DI40 to begin with. It will outperform DT40 in every regard. The winter ratings and ratings in general are just guidelines. M1 "0W-40" is really a SAE 30 grade for example.

My advice is not to worry about the Zinc levels. I believe Lake will tell you the same. DI40 has a higher viscosity because it has more mPAO. I believe you said you reviewed that other thread we had in the 996 forum and if you watched that full Lubrication Explained video by Rafe Britton I posted he explains the chemistry of mPAOs in a very easy way to understand. He also has a visualization of the stereochemistry. Ultimately because it forces the Decene molecules to attach on the first Carbon in the chain when forming the backbone structure and is able to be easily saturated with very few double Carbon bonds, it makes it extremely shear stable among other advantages.

mPAO with alkylated naphthalenes as a co-base stock (because it has some polarity) represents the pinnacle of oil technology. Usually they are only using this in things like wind powered generators that have 10+ year service intervals so it's great that Driven has brought this technology to use to use in our engines.

silver_tt

If Charles Navarro sees this I would be curious if he recommends DI40 or FR50 here.

Also indyxc, for clarification you said Lake recommended DI40 over DT40 for your application. Did he also recommend it over FR50?

IMHO Ultimately you can't really go wrong with either. One thing that drives me crazy is how opaque they are. If you look at FR50 on the driven website:
FR50 utilizes next generation synthetic oil technology to provide unmatched performance and protection in high temperature, high shear environments. FR50 provides the required viscosity for modified racing Ford Coyote oiling and variable valve timing systems while delivering the wear protection needed for performance cams. It also utilizes a low volatility formula that guards against oil vaporization and foaming. Eliminating this problem reduces oil consumption and prevents inconsistent cam phaser system performance. Ideal for crate up to supercharged Ford Coyote engines. Viscosity typical of 5W-50.

Pretty annoying they tie it to the Ford Coyote, as if that is some sort of specification? The Ford Coyote is apparently a naturally aspired 5.0 liter engine, similar so your engine.


For DI40 they still don't have a new picture up after the 5W-40 switch LOL but it says:
Containing a proprietary additive package to combat abnormal combustion issues, as well as soot related problems, Driven's DI40 should be used for direct injection engines that call for 0W-40 motor oil, such as the GM LT5 and Porsche DFI engines.

Again annoying it is tied to a manufacturer but it specifically says it's for Porsche DFI engines, which yours 100% is.

Indyxc

I watched the PCNA video with Lake Speed and Charles where they explain they would have no qualms about running a C40 in an A40 application, and how C40 is technically a better oil, because it has to do do more things better without as much ZDDP. Likewise it does have less calcuim which essentially competes the ZDDP, so it's probably a wash. I did watch that MPAO video of the different bonds, but even as a mechanical engineer, one area my eyes got pretty glazed over in school was chemistry class.

I asked Lake Speed Specifically if he would prefer FR50 over DI40 this morning. When he responds, I will let you know.

Not to make a mess out of it, iIn general I have read some statements here and there that out of all the driven oils,XP9 over the best protection, but really only over oil change interval of 500-1000 miles since it has little detergents. The honest truth is I could probably get away running XP9 and change it twice a year.

I do agree Driven has done themselves a disfavor by making brand specific oils. Generally people are not going to want to put in a "Ford" oil in a Porsche, because of course a Porshce is going to demand a better oil, because it's a Porsche.

Right now I am leaning towards DI40 since it's sold as FCP Euro, and change it every 1000 miles.

silver_tt

Thank you very much. Yes, I would appreciate it if you pass on whatever Lake tells you. Thank you for that.

You are dialed into all the right ideas. The last thing I would say is that you should not run XP9 and change it twice a year. It has a stripped down additive package that won't protect against acid formation for starters. When I run XP9 I put it in right before track time and then drain it immediately after and put DI40 in it. One nice thing about that is that XP9 and DI40 are completely compatible in that there won't be competition between the additive packages, etc.

Indyxc

Adding to this thread, I went back and re-read it and found DI40 used OAs, and comparing it to A40 Mobil 1 Oils, DI40 has more ZDDP than Mobil 1 Euro spec oils, but not quite as much as the DT40. So, while DI40 does not have as much ZDDP as DT40, it has more than Porsche's own spec'd A40 oils.

Not really sure it tells us anything, but like for like, it seems better in all regards than Mobil 1 A40, meaning there is no reason not to dump the A40 Mobil 1 I have in there now (Mobil 1 FS X2 Euro 5w50).

In the oil analysis below its interesting to note the difference between the two DI40 Viscocities. It shows how fuel dillution just kills VI. Obvious lesson is to run fuel injector cleaner,, and not do short trips. I put in my 500 Mobil 1 0w50 Oil Anaysis for comparison.

silver_tt

Agree with you. One thing that you touched on earlier that is spot on is that Blackstone to Speediax comparisons can be a bit apples-to-oranges. E.g. for Blackstone we know the fuel dilution measure to be a crude approximation based on flashpoint and Speediax uses GC.

The 11.23 cSt viscocity for DI40 in the middle sample is puzzling. Seems not correct, I have never seen it that low unless it's a blend of oils (as Brandon from Slakker recently noted, these engines hold a significant amount of oil even after you "fully drain" them and put in new oil). Is that right after you had been using a different oil and maybe there was additive clash?

The reason I ask is because this viscosity is almost unbelievable in how low it is. For comparison my data from DI40 when I was doing 5K OCIs with Speediax:
- First one after switching from dealership oil changes (while under CPO to be safe): 1.94 fuel dilution, 13.6 cSt viscosity.
- 3 OCIs (15K miles) later w/ running PEA: 1.3% fuel dilution, 14.3 cSt viscosity

Also I do agree 100% that fuel dilution kills viscosity. Fuel dilution is usually one of the first things I look at in a UOA. Just knowing that number I can already tell what the wear will look like ballpark if I know what oil it is.......

Indyxc

I am not sure the background on both those DI40 OI samples. I pulled them out of posts here on this thread somewhere (I would have to go back and look). Part of it might be the variability in Blackstone's measurement too.

Indyxc

Here is Lake Speed's Response. He is basically saying regardless what the oil analysis spec sheet says, the used oil analysis shows that DI40 has better wear results.

"
As I mentioned before, the used oil analysis data says the DI40 is the better choice. Thus, that is why I recommended it.

I’m not trying to be snarky. In my experience, spec sheets can be misleading. I understand it is logical to assume higher values on a spec sheet translate into better performance/protection in the engine. However, my experience says that is a false assumption. Oil performance actually relies upon the interaction of the base oils and additive chemistry, thus it is the synergy of the components working within the engine that determines the performance. That is why laboratory tests measuring individual properties doesn't take into account these synergies - the results don’t always add up.

It’s like NFL quarterbacks, Tom Brady was not impressive in the combine (lab tests / spec sheets), but he was the greatest QB to ever play in the NFL (real world results).

I hope that helps. "

silver_tt

Thank you very much for sharing Lake's response. And thank you to Lake for all the great information he has provided.

I have to go with Lake on this one and choose DI40, even if LN Engineering told you they prefer FR50. Lake is 100% correct. This is the reason oil additives will never be as good as buying an oil that is properly optimized at the refinery; to do so is attempting to play chemist.

Lake is right. DI40 has the best wear results I have ever seen. It is likely a better choice even in a port injected engine. In the words of Bobby Fischer it is "best by test".

TerrestrialFlyte

For direct injected applications I’m assuming.

KLS

Here’s another oil that Lake likes. Maybe a replacement for M1?

(0-40 of course)

Indyxc

You're welcome. I went back and re-read a lot of thread and the 997 Forums, and one thing that struck me as different than the 991 Forum here, is not much talk about Motul 300V.

That is a common go to oil for a lot of GT3 RS users. With a healthy calcium dose it does well on the road too. What's everyone's take here on Motul 300V 5w40?

Thanks

silver_tt

300V is ester based (64.6 oxidation value in the virgin sample from Speediax). Esters are excellent but DI40 will be better.

tapcon

Ack! Aluminum is harshin my mellow....

Petza914

With the increasing aluminum and kind of low hot viscosity, I would switch to a 4k mile interval and see if things stabilize a bit.