Rofu

I don’t understand a lot of the negative talk on here about F6I or Jake Raby. If you want to drive your car with scoring, good for you, do it, have fun. For me, I don’t at all. Does Jake get frustrated at times? Yes. Why wouldn’t he? Do you get frustrated when your kids don’t listen to you when you know exactly what your are saying but they blow you off? None of us knows nearly what he does but some doubt his motives and say he’s scaring owners to make money. It’s not his fault Porsche built cars that score. Does he make money off of scored cars? Hell yes and good for him. Heed his advice or don’t but I guarantee even the doubters would love to have a FSI motor in their car instead of a stocker. I personally listen to his advice to the letter. I wish my divorce attorney gave me such great advice for free. None of us wants to know that our cylinder walls are potential time bombs because that’s major money and time. It sucks. But it is what it is. Driving a car that you know has scored cylinders, to me, stinks and takes away from the enjoyment of why I bought my 997 over an XKR. We are lucky to have Jake provide us this knowledge for free. I’m saving up to get one of his engines and can’t wait. We have a pioneer in our field that gives us the best advice possible and some people don’t appreciate it. Not wise.

Flat6 Innovations

The silver car had ZERO symptoms that ANYTHING was going on. The sump was clean, the filter was clean, the filter housing was clean. The used oil analysis that we got from this one showed only minimal loss of the anti- wear package of the oil, but wear metals were fine. The mechanical wear did eat up some of the ZN and P in the anti- wear package, but if I wasn't looking for an issue with that sample I would not have thought anything about it.
Again, this one had ZERO symptoms. Zilch.

Now, keep in mind we have seen bore scoring since the first day that we tore into an M9X engine, more than 18 years ago. That engine had bore scoring, it was the "original failure" that we addressed. Bore scoring is "Mode of failure #1" out of my 31 modes of failure for the engine family. It is literally the very first problem we tacked, even before the IMSB. We have always seen this, but the huge increase 18 months ago has some other correlation playing into it.

-----------

I don't know why truth, and fear are associated. Yes I do. The modern human is afraid of the truth, unless it has unicorns and rainbows attached to it, it is fear. Fear is when things are blowing up around you. Fear is when you lose an engine in a 40 year old rotary wing combat aircraft, in the dark, and you have to fix it before you fall out of the sky. That's fear.

Yes. This is very true, and like I have said before, bore scoring is the failure to have, if you are going to have a failure. It can be fixed with a proven system.

I'll share something with you. I don't even like Porsche cars anymore. What drives me is figuring things out, and developing fixes. The crap I deal with from comments on these forums makes me feel like a jerk when I drive my own Porsche's that I worked my *** off to buy over the years. Today, the cars I dreamed about owning, I have. When I get in those cars, I crank them up, and I feel like a jerk. The only exception is my old 912E, and that is probably because the car is shunned by Porsche owners, and it has a VW engine installed from the factory, and because I have owned the car for 24 years. I owned that car back when I had to take out trash at a local strip mall to afford to buy food. I hauled trash in a 1962 VW bus with no back window, and the charging system didn't work. Some nights if I forgot to charge the battery earlier in thee day, I'd have to drive home without any headlights, else the coil didn't have enough energy to provide spark to keep the engine running. It is lonely at the top, but it sure was a bitch, at the bottom.

Today I drove the 912E to pick my daughter up from school, and on the way I decided to sell every other Porsche that I own. I then realized that I cannot even sell the damn cars without having to worry about some jackass buying them that can't be pleased.

I absolutely, positively disagree! You are looking at this from a "business perspective" but this isn't a business... This IS a LIFE!

I see every other idiot out there ruin their businesses by trying to take on "more". Do more... Build more... Make more... and at the end of the day, they FAIL MORE! They put the focus where it doesn't need to be, and that is on the wallet, and the profit.
I see this happening right now with others in the market, as they buy more and more machines, increase sizes of things, and add on new workers that have no freaking clue what they are doing. They increase everything so fast that they have to push the new employees to learn at a pace that isn't organic, and because if this, they never become proficient. They make mistakes, and these mistakes cost the business EVERYTHING that it HAD before, because the quality is gone. Once you lose the quality, it will never come back.

What leads to this? Greed. Here in the south I grew up around older folks who all lived in the depression, and literally had to survive through it by any means possible. My grandfather never had a job in his life, never had a driver's license, and never had a social security card. He made moonshine all his life, and only went to 3rd grade before he and his brothers had to go provide for his family. He couldn't write anything more than his own name, but he was the smartest man I have ever met. He told me more times than I can remember "Son, the pig gets fat, and the hog gets slaughtered". This defines greed.
He told me this on the very property where Flat 6 Innovations sits today, which was a turkey farm when I was a kid, and that farm was a huge cover up for his liquor operation. It could have been bigger, but that would likely have lead to him getting busted, which never happened. I built my first engine in a barn on this property at the age of 8, today my daughter balanced a set of pistons for a 4.0 997.1 engine, that just so happens to be going back into the silver car from the "Duo", and she is also 8 years old.

It's pretty simple. My "newest" engine builder has been here for 14 years, my newest employee has been here for 7 years. When I look around at other companies, all I see are disasters with employees that I don't have. One of my employees served with me as a US Marine, and back then, he was MY boss, as he ran the flightline shop that we both worked in, so we have been working together for many years. My people are all tasked with jobs months ahead of time, and the builders know what they are doing 15 months from now, to the day. They know exactly when their parts will be ready for balancing, so they can balance them.. They know exactly when the engine will go onto the dyno, to the day. This is a critical balance, and I REFUSE to allow anything to disrupt it.

The thing that it took me a few years to learn was how to say NO when someone offered more money to get a job done, or how to not cave when someone would try to pressure me into bumping them ahead in the line. I simply will not do it. Go to the end of the line, and wait your turn. That's how it works here.

"It is a missed opportunity"...
A missed opportunity to fail.

I'd rather stay like the pig, and keep slowly gaining weight, because one day, when you get too big, you are worth too much at the market, and you get a bullet placed precisely in your skull.

Things here will be staying the same. The whole world can go to hell around me, but you'll never change what happens on my hill.


This isn't Ava's first rodeo.. At age 8 she has already built engines, knows the 4 strokes of a 4 stroke engine, and loves this stuff.

It took her 30 minutes to swap these pistons, and pins to achieve the tightest balance possible, then we removed minimal material to zero out the delta between all 6 pistons.

PV997

Jake - Thanks so much for your perspective and willing to take time to interact on these boards. No one wants to think they are one glitch away from losing twenty grand and the uncertainty probably drives much of the negative feedback. We all want assurance it's not going to happen to us, but that isn't going to happen, and in the big scheme of things it's pretty small potatoes. Also, thanks for your service, didn't realize you were a Marine (though the haircut should have given it away).

bazhart

It’s a bit frustrating to read the same questions being continually asked and responses saying there is no explanation when the very report I have made available and invited you all to read contains all the answers (so YES THERE IS AN EXPLANATION FOR IT ALL!)

HOW TO try and compress all those words, pages and photos into a few short paragraphs here? – I will try.

There are 3 basic contributory factors.

(1) THE GRITTY PARTICLES. All the M96/7 1998-2008 cylinders contain small hard silicon particles that are randomly distributed, different sizes and bonded with variable strengths and they gradually become free from the cylinder bore as the aluminium matrix supporting them wears away and rub between the piston face and the cylinder bore until they are either washed away by the oil or trapped on the piston face. They can be as large or larger than the clearance between the piston and the bore. They are usually only pushed up and down a few times before escaping. It is usually the rings that finally knock a particle free and so you often see light score lines just up as far as a specific ring which drags it down again until if it doesn't escape anymore and digs into the piston face underneath the coating and rubs alloy out in a groove which then can extend the score further. If the scoring is slightly off centre in all the bores it is usually because the location of the crankshaft is slightly out of line with the centre of the bores and the pistons are all loaded slightly off centre. We have found that the piston offset has had nothing to do with scoring and different engines have different offsets and we have even built them on purpose with different offset pistons that made no difference whatsoever. Shallow grooves may not be detected outside the engine until they are deeper with time. Once deep grooves appear they reduce the oil film strength that tries to keep the piston face away from the bores and so any future particles that become free are impacted more quickly and heavily with the next free particle escape. Destruction is therefore a very slow process at first (may be over 10 to 20K or more) then first signs appear externally (ticking and tail pipe) and usually within another 10K they get too bad to ignore.

(2) THE PISTON COATINGS. The pistons can have a hard coating that can resist these particles breaking into the aluminium beneath the surface and enable them to be washed away (early engines with largely KS pistons) OR the later Mahle pistons had a softer plastic coating that can have bonding weaknesses and gradually wear away, pick bits off or peel off – over time.

The plastic coating is softer when the piston is hotter and so damages more easily when the cylinders run hot. You may not be able to determine when the cylinders run hottest because only a small amount of the overall coolant goes into the block and then mixes back with the rest before flowing round the system. Third radiators without thermostatic control can actually make this internal cylinder block temperature higher. Once scoring starts blow bye increases the piston surface temperature and softens the coating more and so the deterioration magnifies more quickly.

(3) HOW LONG WILL THEY LAST. Although you can make educated guesses during the failure process - proving the exact sequence of events leading to failure in any particular engines depends on things you can only find out after they have failed.

If you have an engine in which the silicon particles that become lose first in one or more cylinders - are big, or there are more released sooner – then the damage they inflict will happen sooner.

If you have an engine in which the piston coatings on some or all pistons are less well bonded than others – the particles will impact on the aluminium piston face sooner and wear away the remaining coating quicker.

The higher the load between the piston and the bore the closer it will squeeze the oil film out and the thinner the gap between them that exists - the less space there is for the particles of any size to escape before damaging the surfaces.

Lighter loads and thicker oil will maintain a slightly wider space between the piston face and bore allowing more released particles to float away before causing too much wear and damage. Increased bore clearances resulting from wear help prolong an increased space as more particles are released over time but wear on the piston and rate of particle release will increase with age, mileage, oil condition and viscosity, torque applied (and how often).

High revs and bhp does NOT involve as high torque pressure between the piston and bore as mid range and low speed high throttle opening repeated cycles – so will last longer – in view of which tiptronics driven with high throttle openings on average deliver more torque as they pull away more often in in 2nd gear.

WHAT CAN YOU DO TO AVOID IT?

Very little – sorry!

An engine with 6 well distributed and well bonded silicon particles and 6 well bonded piston coatings that has run with good quality oil that can maintain its viscosity better over time (or ambient changes) and less often driven with high loads at low revs will last very long and possibly never score a bore.

An engine with 6 cylinders with less even distribution of larger silicon particles that are less well bonded in the matrix that runs with pistons with less well bonded coatings and has been driven with high torque and cylinder temperatures more often may fail through bore scoring at less than 20 to 40K miles.

The thrust side of the piston usually fails first because the thrust face places the highest load between the piston and the bore to squeeze the oil film thinner and allow any silicon particle release to impact on the components sooner.

The thrust side on bank 2 is on the top of the piston and on bank 1 on the bottom. The small amount of coolant that flows into the blocks enters at the bottom on both banks and is slow to move up through the block (so is always hotter at the top) so the oil film on the bottom of the cylinders is always cooler and thicker than the oil film on the top and as a result bank 2 (with the thrust load on the top) usually scores a bore or bores in about half the typical life cycle that afflicts bank 1 (where it is on the bottom) most typically 40 to 80K on bank 2 and double that for bank 1 (which is why some only have bank 2 repaired and bank one fitted with our support rings) but nothing can be predicted exactly and anything could happen.

The silicon particles embedded in Nikasil are typically one tenth of the size of those in Lokasil (996/7) or Alusil (944, 968, 9A1 Gen 2 in which the Alusil bonding is better) and are better bonded and if they ever escape (which is rare) they are far too small to cause any damage and as a result pistons require no coatings for long life (although can still benefit from modern coatings to run in better and last even longer).

If you dispute any of the above, want to find out a lot more, want to read enough to be more convinced, want to see photos and other evidence supporting the above and get to understand this very complex subject you need to request a copy of our report and agree to the NDA.

To say there is little anyone can do to avoid scoring is right but to say no one really knows why it happens is absolutely not true – we at Hartech do and have tried to convey that to anyone interested and prepared to read our report (also receiving some unjustified criticism in the process).

It is inevitable that some of those who have reported different opinions may not be best pleased to admit to the validity of the conclusions we have reported on and prefer to muddy the waters, maintain their own explanations or try to discredit ours.

There are other who simply cannot stand the fact that someone has solved the mystery and they didn’t and will try and deflect attention with personal attacks.

The only way for you to judge for yourself who and what to believe is to read and fully ingest our report and follow its logic and the discoveries that we share with everyone.

In any case (and in fairness to all involved Worldwide) there are still different solutions that result - many of which are clearly satisfying different markets in different Countries often by specialists whose explanations disagree with ours (and therefore it doesn’t really practically matter who is right or wrong about the causes). There are however – certainly in the UK – a growing number of apparent specialists inevitably getting into a growing market who don’t have a clue what is going on and provide poor solutions for engines that often have to be rebuilt again afterwards.

LN, Flat 6 and us actually agree on most things about the overall picture we see emerging, the right direction and solutions to better rebuilds and the quality of our expertise (although we differ in other specific points and some issues about causes) but in all cases I think (perhaps hope) I can speak for them when I explain that we never expect to see this level of failures repeat in future models (like the 9A1 Gen 2 and beyond). Our businesses and the way we provide our rebuild services involve a lot of investment, highly trained people, parts and logistics and work as a team with a relatively fixed capacity. It would be a very short term but huge investment to expand our whole operations to meet current relatively short term demand (that in our case would have to be doubled) after which as more engines are repaired and the market moves on – would have to downsize again.

We seem to have a much shorter lead time than Jake (possibly because there seem to be a lot of alternatives available in the UK to spread the workload) and this is why created a flow production system involving all the machinery required IN HOUSE - to help repair crankcases, build bottom ends or complete engines for other specialists (for which we have a much larger capacity than when we do the whole job on a car) so we can provide the high quality closed deck liner repairs to as much of the market as possible and manage the decline better when it eventually slows down (if ever).

We (like them) also offer improved performance versions for those wanting something extra back for their money.

Sorry even this attempt to be brief has over-run again – it’s a big subject.

Baz

Technical Director, Hartech Automotive, www.hartech.org enquiries for reports to Sharon admin@hartech.org sales enquiries to Grant auto@hartech.org technical enquiries to me BAZ baz@hartech.org (but be advised I did not spend days writing the reports to then answer questions to those who have not bothered to read them in full and just want me to spend my time for nothing explaining away their individual concerns – but I will be happy to communicate with anyone who HAS read them and has a legitimate point to raise).

Carreralicious

Anyone see this piece on bore design which talks about Nikasil, alusil, locasil, and other methods including iron bores? It actually says Locasil process is effective vis a vis the other methods although it’s more expensive.

https://www.wardsauto.com/news-analy...s-strong-ideas

bazhart

You must be right then Boxstaboy - all these failures must be a figment of our imagination!

Actually that report reads as if it is rather old and taken from sources not directly involved in the repair and rebuilding of these engines for 15 years as LN, Jake and we have been. I guess you have also offered this alternative without reading our report - or I suspect you would already understand the limitations in theirs.

Mind you the one you refer to is short and to the point with most of it right and refers to the potential benefit of Nikasil plated alloy liners which of course we have all been fitting successfully for years - but I guess any alternative is better than bothering to read the in depth reports or videos we three experienced Porsche specialists make available that have proven reliable for our markets for years?

Baz

Carreralicious

i actually have read your report. I signed the NDA and sent to Sharon a while back. It is good reading for sure. I found that it also spent a lot of time covering your shop’s solutions but can’t blame you for that. While a great read on what you feel causes the problem and the factors that are involved, I guess I was hoping to see a little more like what some others here have mentioned in terms of practical ways to avoid or prolong the time before having to do the full rebuild if scoring is once discovered (eg. Driving/warm up methods, what exact oil type/brand and/or additives to use, services to be done, etc).

In terms of the link I posted, I did that because I thought it was interesting given that it reads as coming from an auto manufacturer supplier industry rather than a repair shop expert who’s seen these failures like yourselves and Jake.

Their take, in terms of what they believe are the pros and cons of the various methods of manufacture don’t necessarily play out in reality, as we obviously see failures out there in practice. I just found it funny that the manufacturers claim that Locasil was a good effective process while being more expensive turns out to be rather problematic. I also found it interesting that they claimed Nikasil was not all that great as seen in BMWs, but yet PORSCHE puts it in their top line GT and Turbo cars and they never fail.

bazhart

Nice reply Boxstaboy - thanks.

Would it not be a bit odd for us to explain what is wrong with these engines and different solutions and then not say anything about what we do about it? In each description of the causes of problems and solutions we found we came up with an improved result or outcome and surely it is obvious that we would explain how we avoid those problems in future or alter things to make them less invasive or more unlikely to occur again which is backed up by a superb reputation here in the UK?

Unfortunately - what you (and many others) are understandably seeking is a way to completely avoid the problem and I am afraid it would be misleading to imply there was one. The best anyone can do is to mention a few minor changes that might extend the engines life (but more likely will make no difference) and be there with a reliable solution if and when it occurs.

Furthermore I think it is really important to explain why rebuilds by various specialists are different and explain why technically and as a result of research and not make believe or hearsay so owners can make good choices.


They vary from fitting one iron liner through the alloy Nikasil plated cylinder replacements we (and some others do) and include fitting an engine from a crashed car, returning it to standard with new blocks that may or may not fail again in even shorter time periods and mileages. All have different costs and outcomes but those of us who have rebuilt hundreds to our specifications without problems must be doing something right and it seems reasonable for some of us to explain what we do and allow the public to compare the results and make their preferred choices.

Hoping you manage to avoid the problems.

Baz

Carreralicious

Fair comments Baz. And it’s great to know that experts like yourselves are providing reliable solutions to Porsche’s shortcomings so that these cars can continue to be enjoyed albeit at considerable cost. Lol.

So basically what I am reading in the most basic summary is that these engines start dying from the day it is created and the cylinder walls and pistons most likely will destroy themselves and any attempt at maintaining good practices in driving style/warm up and more frequent oil change intervals, better oil or additive choices is futile and if the problem will arise, it will arise regardless. Lol. So if that’s the case, I’ll just keep feeding my 997.1 3.8 the Mobil 1 then and rebuild the sucker when it dies. Thanks all! That was easy!

bazhart

A close to the truth response Boxstaboy but not quite right. From day one the cylinder bores are good and the alloy supporting the small silicon particles is well bonded to them and most are small because the honing has cut them down and smoothed them out on the surface - while the piston coatings are new and well bonded at this stage, clearances are tight and blow bye minimal so pistons run cooler and all is well with the World.

At some stage (sorry we cannot accurately warn when) several things change. The rings and also the action of oil rubbing up and down the bores gradually and imperceptibly erode the surface matrix and make some particles stick out more from the surface and the rings then impact on them more severely resulting in little particles breaking free. it is what happens to them next that determines how long the engine will survive.

If the car is driven with high torque then when they break free they will rub harder against that soft plastic piston coating and wear it down more quickly. This increases bore clearances and blow bye and piston temperatures and sets up a vicious circle of decline. How thick the oil is at temperature at this stage and how high the cylinder block internal temperature is running at then impacts on how long the piston face and bore are kept apart from each other and how big the gap is.

You are then in the luck of the gods as to how good the piston coating bonding is, what the size, distribution and bonding strength of the silicon particles as in different parts of your engine, how it is driven, etc.

When you read our report you will have seen pictures of different piston coating failures including wear, patches disappearing and whole areas just peeling off. Once this happens silicon particles can more easily stick into the surface and when they do they start to knock out more exposed silicon particles - so deterioration escalates and no longer is mainly cause by ring impact but by more and more particles impacting on the piston and bore. You will have seen pictures of bores where the surface has been washed away by oil and pictures of different piston coatings we tried showing how those tiny particles of silicon scratch into the surfaces.

Lokasil was a brilliant idea and you will have read that KS that originally made both the blocks and hard coated pistons that went with them stated that Lokasil will only ever work with those hard coated pistons which they stopped supplying when the process was banned. You will be aware that no one has yet come up with such a good surface coating although the later Ferrotec is better than the plastic Ferroprint - none as good as the original Ferrostan.

If you managed to wade through the whole report and understood it all - I would have expected you to already understand how random these failures are and how difficult they are to predict. If you didn't understand it all that will be down to my own failing in explaining it well enough - not the validity of the content.

Finally it is no surprise that Lokasil was eventually abandoned (even though it worked OK with the original piston coatings).

It is interesting that the most reliable Porsche coating to date has always been Nikasil and that it worked just fine applied to alloy air cooled cylinders and closed deck Alloy cylinders in later and more powerful and racing versions.

Baz

Ericson38

"I'll share something with you. I don't even like Porsche cars anymore. What drives me is figuring things out, and developing fixes. The crap I deal with from comments on these forums makes me feel like a jerk when I drive my own Porsche's that I worked my *** off to buy over the years. Today, the cars I dreamed about owning, I have. When I get in those cars, I crank them up, and I feel like a jerk. The only exception is my old 912E, and that is probably because the car is shunned by Porsche owners, and it has a VW engine installed from the factory, and because I have owned the car for 24 years. "

Jake, I know you don't mean that. Every time I drive our seal grey 997 MT C4 cab, it takes me back to my 1st silver manual sports car, a 280Z, in Socal. I presently think to myself, dang this Porsche is better in every way. Back when I commuted to Hughes Aircraft Space and Comm from Torrance in 1981, I drove it right by the Porsche dealer Vassak Pollak in Redondo Beach. Those cars the 280 would never rise to, and then the 300Z that followed went further in the wrong direction. One of our mid level mechanical engineers bought a 1985 Turbo Look. Everyone at Space and Comm would look at her white car at lunch.

Today there are shops that specialize in putting the early Z cars back on the road. I don't think to a person that they don't like these cars. Back then (and now still) they were stuck in cast iron land, while the Porsches were into aluminum. They can't quite get to 300 hp without major mods to the 280 engine (2.8 liter). You have to admit, the Japanese gave it a good try though.

Prairiedawg

Thank you for summing up and providing a Cliffs Notes version of your report. If I'm understanding correctly then, your conclusions are some will fail, some will not. It has to do with the tolerances in manufacturing of the matrix.

All one Can do to protect yourself is to use a thicker oil to promote a wider clearance to the cylinder wall.

I know the oil topic has been beaten to death and I'm sure its covered in your report but 0w50, 5w40,5w50 for normal street driving?

vern1

Baz, awesome!!!! Your couple of posts above should be up top of the 997 forum as a sticky so that every time this bloody topic comes up, they can be directed there

Best explanation I have seen yet. Bottom line, if you have an M97 keep your fingers crossed as its really just luck of the draw as to whether you get a "good" engine or not

bazhart

Prairedawg - not just the matrix but also the piston coating = 2 components that rub together such that if both are good from the start on all 6 cylinders you stand the chance of longer life - if both are poor on all 6 cylinders you will get a very short life - anything in between depends on how poor and which affects the other first.

If there is a lot of large silicon particle loss touching a well bonded piston coating - that will last quite well but if there is minimal particle loss but the coating has come off - that will stick to the piston soonest.

It only takes 1 piston coating or one cylinder to be poor for the failure to occur early and from then on the permutations between the various qualities mixed together forms the random nature of the failures.

Fortunately most will run for quite a long time before they get really bad and so it provides the opportunity for owners to research their preferred specialist and method while getting the money together to pay for it all.

I like to keep away from promoting oils too much as it becomes like telling a parent they are bringing up their child all wrong - people are so locked into one particular solution it isn't worth rocking their boats for the flack that follows - but after 25 to 40 K I would like to see a thicker oil than from new and after 100K EVEN THICKER (with allowances made for ambient conditions in Countries with variable seasons and/or permanent hot or cold climates).

if you contact our service dept they can advise on the particulars to suit your model, mileage and usual weather conditions.

Baz

996.2

Porsche knows about silicone particles shedding from cylinder walls, and their dealers currently put in M96/7 5w-50?