premium on manual trans?
#16
To answer your question, I think the PDK shifted things a lot. Prior to that the tiptronic was seen as an inferior transmission from a sport perspective. Acceleration numbers were always higher with manual cars until PDK came along, and that speed is what buyers want with a sports car (of course, who can "feel" a tenth of a second?). So, as has been previously noted, now and probably since the 997.2, Porsche sells way more PDK cars than manual, so the 6MT cars are more rare. But so are the 6MT buyers, who are mainly enthusiasts and/or people who are buying their car as a toy and not a daily driver. (I haven't seen official data, but it's pretty clear to me that in the 997.1 6MT cars are pricier today.)
However, if you're wondering about how your car's value will hold up over time, it's my opinion that the 6MT cars will be more valuable, even in the 997.2. It just makes sense, especially once we're all driving electric for our daily drivers, that the throwback cars will be more desired as all gas engine cars will be toys. How long we have to wait for this is anyone's guess though.
However, if you're wondering about how your car's value will hold up over time, it's my opinion that the 6MT cars will be more valuable, even in the 997.2. It just makes sense, especially once we're all driving electric for our daily drivers, that the throwback cars will be more desired as all gas engine cars will be toys. How long we have to wait for this is anyone's guess though.
#17
Easy answer is data accuracy is poor.
You can do your own assessment by searching and sorting through the cars list on Autotrader, Cars.com, etc (holding certain elements constant and adjusting others). When you do that there is a clear premium for manual cars.
Note that if you try to automate, a lot of "manual" cars that show up are actually PDK or tiptronic (because "manually shifted" dealers will enter as manual).
The supply/demand balance on used 911s is strongly in favor of manuals because once you get out of the new cars the target audience is the enthusiast crowd (i.e., the rennlist crowd). Since older 911s are not a performance match $ for $ with a lot of other options, the preference starts to become more driving engagement, feel, etc, (the intangibles).
BTW, I'm not anti-PDK and a lot of enthusiast drivers who actually track their cars will prefer PDK... but out of the Rennlist/enthusiast crowd, there is a much higher preference for manual than automatic transmissions in the older car.
You can do your own assessment by searching and sorting through the cars list on Autotrader, Cars.com, etc (holding certain elements constant and adjusting others). When you do that there is a clear premium for manual cars.
Note that if you try to automate, a lot of "manual" cars that show up are actually PDK or tiptronic (because "manually shifted" dealers will enter as manual).
The supply/demand balance on used 911s is strongly in favor of manuals because once you get out of the new cars the target audience is the enthusiast crowd (i.e., the rennlist crowd). Since older 911s are not a performance match $ for $ with a lot of other options, the preference starts to become more driving engagement, feel, etc, (the intangibles).
BTW, I'm not anti-PDK and a lot of enthusiast drivers who actually track their cars will prefer PDK... but out of the Rennlist/enthusiast crowd, there is a much higher preference for manual than automatic transmissions in the older car.
#18
Cannot disagree modern autos are not faster shifting and more efficient and get significantly better mileage. That is better by those metrics. My wife's 9 speed auto and my last car's 7 speed DCT are terrific for eating miles efficiently. The cars I think about having, have had, or do have, like 930, Viper, S2000, old NSX, Miata, or R8, to name a few, just seem or would seem soulless with an auto, no matter how good. Thankfully, some never offered an auto. If I had 2-3 Porsches I would like one auto included.
#19
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I feel manuals are more common on 997.1. Seems to be more rare in 997.2 due to lower numbers due to economy and the PDK being a great transmission.
#20
As PDK cars age to a point where they can't be covered or cost-effectively covered under warranty, I fell they will become less desirable. If PDKs can eventually be repaired instead of replaced, things might go differently.
#22
Rennlist Member
I dunno, it's not like PDK cars are dropping like flies but I can think of a few threads in the past year where someone's looking at potentially a $20k+ repair if a warranty or PCNA don't step in. It's not unheard of.
#23
Three Wheelin'
Also not unheard of on manual transmissions either. The search button shows as much.
#24
Rennlist Member
On a manual transmission you have options. On a PDK, a valve can go bad and the official recourse is to replace the whole unit.
#26
Three Wheelin'
Easy answer is data accuracy is poor.
You can do your own assessment by searching and sorting through the cars list on Autotrader, Cars.com, etc (holding certain elements constant and adjusting others). When you do that there is a clear premium for manual cars.
Note that if you try to automate, a lot of "manual" cars that show up are actually PDK or tiptronic (because "manually shifted" dealers will enter as manual).
The supply/demand balance on used 911s is strongly in favor of manuals because once you get out of the new cars the target audience is the enthusiast crowd (i.e., the rennlist crowd). Since older 911s are not a performance match $ for $ with a lot of other options, the preference starts to become more driving engagement, feel, etc, (the intangibles).
BTW, I'm not anti-PDK and a lot of enthusiast drivers who actually track their cars will prefer PDK... but out of the Rennlist/enthusiast crowd, there is a much higher preference for manual than automatic transmissions in the older car.
You can do your own assessment by searching and sorting through the cars list on Autotrader, Cars.com, etc (holding certain elements constant and adjusting others). When you do that there is a clear premium for manual cars.
Note that if you try to automate, a lot of "manual" cars that show up are actually PDK or tiptronic (because "manually shifted" dealers will enter as manual).
The supply/demand balance on used 911s is strongly in favor of manuals because once you get out of the new cars the target audience is the enthusiast crowd (i.e., the rennlist crowd). Since older 911s are not a performance match $ for $ with a lot of other options, the preference starts to become more driving engagement, feel, etc, (the intangibles).
BTW, I'm not anti-PDK and a lot of enthusiast drivers who actually track their cars will prefer PDK... but out of the Rennlist/enthusiast crowd, there is a much higher preference for manual than automatic transmissions in the older car.
#27
I paid a premium on my manual 997.1 cab, simply because availability compared to tiptronics was incredibly limited (around 10 to 1).
So when I found a manual with the right spec, I didn't have a lot of negotiating room left in terms of pricing, hence the premium compared to a similarly-specced tiptronic.
Haven't regretted it for a single second though
So when I found a manual with the right spec, I didn't have a lot of negotiating room left in terms of pricing, hence the premium compared to a similarly-specced tiptronic.
Haven't regretted it for a single second though
#28
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I’m a track enthusiast with two manual cars. When I went looking to replace my dd I had no interest in another manual. My previous dd’s had pdk and I enjoyed the drive. As time goes on I suspect more drivers will opt for the pdk. There are a lot of people who have never or rarely driven a manual and won’t be that enthralled by or even know the feel of the manual. Couple that with the evidence that the cars are faster, albeit by tenths of a second, and people will use that piece to help make their decision. Manual values may increase but only in the limited market of those willing to buy a manual. As to the price of repairing or replacing a pdk, this can be hedged by a warranty. I don’t buy warranty’s but in the case of my recent purchase it seemed like a good cost/benefit choice. I’ve already recouped 30% of my premium on a cv replacement. Having replaced them on my other Porsche’s I consider this a consumable, especially on a 9 year old higher mileage car.
#29
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
But if you search around, you'll find it for about $9K + core charge. I’m not 100% certain this is the right part number for a C2S without LSD, but Sunset currently lists this one for $8,110 + $5,200 core charge - https://www.sunsetporscheparts.com/o...on-9g1300011bx
Labor seems to be in the 15 hour range. Given rates vary from as low as $100/hr at some Indys, to $225/hr at my local dealers, the swing on labor cost is $1.5K to over $3K.
Some examples of parts and labor prices...
$10K (before the discount) - https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...l#post13625686
$10K (got a break on the labor costs) - https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...l#post14602125
$13K (Bay Area sales tax is 9% and has high dealer labor rates) - https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-a...l#post15327541
So I’d assume $11K to replace, with +/- adjustments for your local labor rates...
Karl.
Last edited by wjk_glynn; 12-13-2018 at 01:29 PM.
#30
Instructor
I had a '91 5MT that I rarely drove on Saturdays (in third gear 90% of the time). Now I drive my '09 PDK much more. I can commute in traffic, I can drink a coffee, I can eat a breakfast burrito on the way home, the wife can drive it. I get more use and joy out of my current car with PDK than anything since the E36 M3. I get the MT engagement, but overall PDK works better for me.