Debating the 997.1 and .2 price delta is < $10k
04-25-2018, 02:36 PM
#31
Instructor
RAC is a great place to drool, I agree swingwing! I walked around their place on many occasions before finding my car in California. Their asking prices are certainly higher than some other places but most of the examples there are close to pristine. I've taken mine for service there, and they are great in my opinion.
To the OP - both cars are great. I looked at a ton of each. The pricing difference between a 997.1S in great shape and a 997.2 base in good shape was pretty much nothing. I passed on a few 997.2's in really nice shape for less than what I ultimately purchased my 997.1 for.... why? I liked the particular 997.1S a lot more and it had everything I wanted. That's just me. You can't really lose on the decision. Get the best car you can that meets your wants, then stop worrying about it. If you're flexible on tranny and top, the PDK and tiptronic cabrio's can be had for thousands less than manual coupes. I had no interest in PDK and/or cabrio, which narrowed things down quite a bit.
To the OP - both cars are great. I looked at a ton of each. The pricing difference between a 997.1S in great shape and a 997.2 base in good shape was pretty much nothing. I passed on a few 997.2's in really nice shape for less than what I ultimately purchased my 997.1 for.... why? I liked the particular 997.1S a lot more and it had everything I wanted. That's just me. You can't really lose on the decision. Get the best car you can that meets your wants, then stop worrying about it. If you're flexible on tranny and top, the PDK and tiptronic cabrio's can be had for thousands less than manual coupes. I had no interest in PDK and/or cabrio, which narrowed things down quite a bit.
04-25-2018, 05:25 PM
#32
LOL - Actually was just there as you both (Swingwing/Always) were posting. Definitely on the high end because that's what their clients want (pristine low miles high options) but the guys were very nice and very informative. They live and breathe Porsche. They also are very knowledgeable about pricing across the 911 generations. The warehouse is drool worthy. Many high end cars. I didn't look close but there was either a 918 or GT and then several other $200k + cars.
If I buy locally they will definitely do my PPI and perhaps my indy. Looks like they are capable for anything service wise.
If I buy locally they will definitely do my PPI and perhaps my indy. Looks like they are capable for anything service wise.
04-25-2018, 06:12 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
That's true, and the performance specs are almost exactly the same....that's why I spent a tad more and got a 997.2 in great shape. I bought this car because it is fun and I wanted to have fun. I have money to take care of things if something happens. But 20k for an engine rebuild? Well, I have that kind of money too, but just didn't want to have to think about it. Takes some of the fun out of it.
04-25-2018, 07:52 PM
#34
Rennlist Member
So I have read this before, anyone care to elaborate? I drove a 991.1 w/ PSE and the noise was just intoxicating. I have read that the 997.2, even with PSE, is the most subdued between all the 997's and 991's in terms of engine note, and have read that the 997.1 had the best engine note, even without PSE, and particularly amazing if you can score one with PSE. What does everyone think on this one?
04-25-2018, 08:06 PM
#35
Pro
This sounds a bit like someone I know who's been shopping for a 997 for well over 2 years now. Frankly, between the spread sheets, the statistics and sales history he's got stored and keeps adding to I doubt he'll ever buy. I've lost count now on the cars he's passed on because they were "overpriced" based on his data collection. I've told him to his face that I think it's kind of sad that he keeps depriving himself of owning and driving his dream car but he's obsessed with the idea that he may be overpaying. Pricing these cars is not an exact science. Never was and never will be with all the variables involved. You already have the big picture so find what's close to what you're looking for, have it inspected and if clean, don't let it get away from you over a couple of thousand $. My 2c.
This from your other thread. With all due respect, if you're holding out for the exact shade of silver with a rare interior color or stitching color, I suspect you'll be waiting a very long time. Good luck with your search and sincerely hope you prove me wrong and find your absolute perfect match at a bargain basement price.
04-25-2018, 08:10 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
Some corrections:
4% to 10% of IMS's fail, depending on who you listen to. 2% by any measure is low.
IMS's aren't the only problem with m96/97's. There are others - bore scoring, especially on 3.8's. RMS leaks that aren't fixable. Leaks in general.
A tip is really bad, and very different than a PDK. So bad it almost begs the question, "Why buy a 911?". I can relate to someone buying a PDK, as it is excellent. A tip kills the car.
Tiptronic cars' sell price depends on the car it is in. If it is a convertible with a tip that won't kill it any more that the convertible does in the first place. Its a different buyer buying the cab (wife's toy).
You find a tip in a coupe absolutely smashes its value, compared to other coups with manuals.
If one isn't interested in back roads or actually driving a Porsche for its intended purpose, that's cool. But I believe one will find that it is not a really great car at doing other things. It is expensive, loud, stiff, and uncomfortable in just about any other role. Should probably buy an M3 or something, they are much easier to live with.
4% to 10% of IMS's fail, depending on who you listen to. 2% by any measure is low.
IMS's aren't the only problem with m96/97's. There are others - bore scoring, especially on 3.8's. RMS leaks that aren't fixable. Leaks in general.
A tip is really bad, and very different than a PDK. So bad it almost begs the question, "Why buy a 911?". I can relate to someone buying a PDK, as it is excellent. A tip kills the car.
Tiptronic cars' sell price depends on the car it is in. If it is a convertible with a tip that won't kill it any more that the convertible does in the first place. Its a different buyer buying the cab (wife's toy).
You find a tip in a coupe absolutely smashes its value, compared to other coups with manuals.
If one isn't interested in back roads or actually driving a Porsche for its intended purpose, that's cool. But I believe one will find that it is not a really great car at doing other things. It is expensive, loud, stiff, and uncomfortable in just about any other role. Should probably buy an M3 or something, they are much easier to live with.
04-25-2018, 08:19 PM
#37
Three Wheelin'
@Meursault88 and @HiAperture - welcome and good luck in the search. You are doing all the right things in researching the car so wether you choose a 997.2 or 997.1, you are going to have a great experience.
The only bad decision will be not pulling the trigger. I purchased mine 15 months ago and studied the forums and tracked cars for a couple months as well. I will say there was better inventory of both 997.2s and 997.1s 15 months ago.
Here is my take:
1. After the first drive you wont have any regrets, no matter what you choose. I bought a lowly base 997.1 and love it. Its pure, its gorgeous, it was stupid cheap, and its mine. All the things I obsessed about before I bought it I have since forgotten (well except for Eibach springs and Fister exhaust...those were required mods).
2. Buy whatever car you can comfortably afford with <50k miles thats well maintained and has good records. I don’t subscribe to the view of buying a higher-mile 997.2 over a lower mile 997.1. You will get whacked on depreciation at 100k miles no matter what the car. If you buy a car with 40k miles you can drive the **** out of it for a couple years and still get your money out of it.
3. If your "no regrets" budget is $35-40k, buy a 997.1 base C2 and put some Eibachs on it. If its $40-45k, buy a 997.1 C2S. If its $45-50k, buy a 997.1 C4S...or a 997.2 C2. If its $55-60k, buy a 997.2 C2S, etc, etc. The smile on your face wont be any different no matter what category you fall in.
4. Re IMS and bore scoring on the 997.1, these are mitigated with 4 simple steps: a) buy a 2006-2008 with larger bearing, b) buy a warm weather car, c) have the oil filter pulled during the PPI and check for gremlins, and d) get a borescope if you have any lingering concerns. If you do those things your maintenance and reliability will be on par for either car. **** happens but you have removed all variables in your control.
Re RMS, its a $10 part which you can replace when you do the clutch. It only affects 2004-2006 cars and most would have been replaced by now anyway. Mine was replaced by the prior owner. I think his total bill was $600. Not something to stress over.
5. Re PCM 2.1, that was my biggest complaint on the 997.1 until I got the LaPower bluetooth unit ($150). Now I have hands free calling and streaming music right through the factory PCM. I’ve also found setting the PCM main screen to the trip computer makes it look less like an old Atari game and its actually quite useful for tracking my drives. Ive come to appreciate the retro style.
6. Yes, a 997.2 is $15k+ more vs equivalent spec 997.1. Is it a better engine, yes but they still have their issues like all cars (high pressure fuel pump, cracked expansion tank, water pump, PDK issues, PCM 3 glitches, etc, so making any assumption about "reduced maintenance cost" is false). Would I love to have one, sure. Would I pay $15k more for one…no f’n way. To each his own.
7. Lastly, I saw a question about exhaust note. Yes, the 997.1 has a more muscular exhaust note and sounds glorious with a set of Fisters. On the 997.2 you need to add Fisters and an X-pipe to get the same growl.
Good luck and send us some pics when you pull the trigger.
The only bad decision will be not pulling the trigger. I purchased mine 15 months ago and studied the forums and tracked cars for a couple months as well. I will say there was better inventory of both 997.2s and 997.1s 15 months ago.
Here is my take:
1. After the first drive you wont have any regrets, no matter what you choose. I bought a lowly base 997.1 and love it. Its pure, its gorgeous, it was stupid cheap, and its mine. All the things I obsessed about before I bought it I have since forgotten (well except for Eibach springs and Fister exhaust...those were required mods).
2. Buy whatever car you can comfortably afford with <50k miles thats well maintained and has good records. I don’t subscribe to the view of buying a higher-mile 997.2 over a lower mile 997.1. You will get whacked on depreciation at 100k miles no matter what the car. If you buy a car with 40k miles you can drive the **** out of it for a couple years and still get your money out of it.
3. If your "no regrets" budget is $35-40k, buy a 997.1 base C2 and put some Eibachs on it. If its $40-45k, buy a 997.1 C2S. If its $45-50k, buy a 997.1 C4S...or a 997.2 C2. If its $55-60k, buy a 997.2 C2S, etc, etc. The smile on your face wont be any different no matter what category you fall in.
4. Re IMS and bore scoring on the 997.1, these are mitigated with 4 simple steps: a) buy a 2006-2008 with larger bearing, b) buy a warm weather car, c) have the oil filter pulled during the PPI and check for gremlins, and d) get a borescope if you have any lingering concerns. If you do those things your maintenance and reliability will be on par for either car. **** happens but you have removed all variables in your control.
Re RMS, its a $10 part which you can replace when you do the clutch. It only affects 2004-2006 cars and most would have been replaced by now anyway. Mine was replaced by the prior owner. I think his total bill was $600. Not something to stress over.
5. Re PCM 2.1, that was my biggest complaint on the 997.1 until I got the LaPower bluetooth unit ($150). Now I have hands free calling and streaming music right through the factory PCM. I’ve also found setting the PCM main screen to the trip computer makes it look less like an old Atari game and its actually quite useful for tracking my drives. Ive come to appreciate the retro style.
6. Yes, a 997.2 is $15k+ more vs equivalent spec 997.1. Is it a better engine, yes but they still have their issues like all cars (high pressure fuel pump, cracked expansion tank, water pump, PDK issues, PCM 3 glitches, etc, so making any assumption about "reduced maintenance cost" is false). Would I love to have one, sure. Would I pay $15k more for one…no f’n way. To each his own.
7. Lastly, I saw a question about exhaust note. Yes, the 997.1 has a more muscular exhaust note and sounds glorious with a set of Fisters. On the 997.2 you need to add Fisters and an X-pipe to get the same growl.
Good luck and send us some pics when you pull the trigger.
04-25-2018, 08:50 PM
#38
Pro
For what it’s worth I put a set of Fisters on my .2 C2 last Saturday. Have yet to drive it though, as it was raining heavily and I was preparing to leave on trip (not this car) the next day. Test drive comes this Saturday!
04-25-2018, 09:00 PM
#39
Bruce - thanks for the input. My belief is that prices between equivalent models of the 997.1 vs the 997.2 have tightened up. The dealer I was at today said they can't keep 997.1 MT coupes in stock - they are in and out in days. It's actually the 997.2s that are dragging and my sense is that a lot of buyers for those pulled the trigger in the last 2 years. As an example the 997.2 with 70k miles and lot of good options that sold for $35k last week. Little accidents don't bother me nor does mileage as I intend to keep the car as long as I drive.
I found the nearly best combination of a 997.1 except that it's the base and I can't yet embrace the 325 hp performance.
Blakecam - I am a little more flexible as time goes on - just waiting for the right combination.
I found the nearly best combination of a 997.1 except that it's the base and I can't yet embrace the 325 hp performance.
Blakecam - I am a little more flexible as time goes on - just waiting for the right combination.
04-25-2018, 09:24 PM
#40
Instructor
They move pretty fast. It took me several months of daily looking/calling/visiting to find my manual coupe. It was hard work, but fun. Some would be gone within hours, others had unfavorable inspections, some were just not what I wanted. Like I said, the PDK's/Tips and cabs were definitely more plentiful a year ago when I got mine, less expensive than their 6-spd coupe counterparts, and seemed to stick around longer. Looking at the car sites today, that still seems to be the case.
04-26-2018, 01:52 AM
#41
Nordschleife Master
I wanted a 997.2, so I put my 996 up for sale, it sold in like two days, now I was like oh wow I'm gonna miss it and was never sure when I was gonna find my 997.2. I wanted a Carmax car, a week later one came up that checked all of the boxes, I gave the color a backseat as long as it was a great deal, so I got white. I would have rather had black or dark grey but I didn't want to get hung up on color because that could make my search last for months or years. Better to get the car and enjoy it instead of obsessing over a few grand, life's to short.
04-26-2018, 09:04 AM
#42
5. Re PCM 2.1, that was my biggest complaint on the 997.1 until I got the LaPower bluetooth unit ($150). Now I have hands free calling and streaming music right through the factory PCM. I’ve also found setting the PCM main screen to the trip computer makes it look less like an old Atari game and its actually quite useful for tracking my drives. Ive come to appreciate the retro style.
04-26-2018, 10:22 AM
#43
When I was searching for my 997S I starting looking immediately at 997.1s with price in mind. I spoke to several local Porsche Performance shops about potentially adding mods to the 997.1 All shops remmended I purchase the 997.2 for motor (street / track reliability)and performance without even asking the question. I probably still would have considered a 997.1S if the right deal turned up. As luck would have it, a local MT 2009 997S turned up with all desired options and color combo! I actually prefer the exhaust note vs the 987.1S I traded in. Best ride I’ve ever purchased. Good luck on your search!
Last edited by Hi-Arc; 04-26-2018 at 10:31 AM. Reason: typo
04-26-2018, 11:29 AM
#44
Rennlist Member
This could be a sampling error. Ive spoke to 2 dealers about the "lot time" of 997's. It isn't the difference between .1 and .2's that account for how long they are on the lot. It is the difference between manuals vs autos. Both dealers told me that if they get a coupe/manual 997 of any year they are gone.
04-26-2018, 12:55 PM
#45
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by sandwedge
Exactly. I can't think of a single high performance car I've bought where I didn't compromise on something. Sometimes minor, other times a bit more. My thinking has always been that we don't know how much time we have left to drive what we enjoy so much so to spend endless months or even years to get 100% of everything you think you must have is self defeating.