Debating the 997.1 and .2 price delta is < $10k
04-24-2018, 02:52 PM
#16
As to the above, that’s the case on the IMS boogeyman. Watch the PCA video featuring Flat six Innovations on YouTube addressing every aspect of the IMS over the 996-7 / M96/7 platform. Interesting and informative video and you’ll learn something relevant, as well as perhaps sleep at night.....
04-24-2018, 06:00 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
Some corrections:
4% to 10% of IMS's fail, depending on who you listen to. 2% by any measure is low.
IMS's aren't the only problem with m96/97's. There are others - bore scoring, especially on 3.8's. RMS leaks that aren't fixable. Leaks in general.
A tip is really bad, and very different than a PDK. So bad it almost begs the question, "Why buy a 911?". I can relate to someone buying a PDK, as it is excellent. A tip kills the car.
Tiptronic cars' sell price depends on the car it is in. If it is a convertible with a tip that won't kill it any more that the convertible does in the first place. Its a different buyer buying the cab (wife's toy).
You find a tip in a coupe absolutely smashes its value, compared to other coups with manuals.
If one isn't interested in back roads or actually driving a Porsche for its intended purpose, that's cool. But I believe one will find that it is not a really great car at doing other things. It is expensive, loud, stiff, and uncomfortable in just about any other role. Should probably buy an M3 or something, they are much easier to live with.
4% to 10% of IMS's fail, depending on who you listen to. 2% by any measure is low.
IMS's aren't the only problem with m96/97's. There are others - bore scoring, especially on 3.8's. RMS leaks that aren't fixable. Leaks in general.
A tip is really bad, and very different than a PDK. So bad it almost begs the question, "Why buy a 911?". I can relate to someone buying a PDK, as it is excellent. A tip kills the car.
Tiptronic cars' sell price depends on the car it is in. If it is a convertible with a tip that won't kill it any more that the convertible does in the first place. Its a different buyer buying the cab (wife's toy).
You find a tip in a coupe absolutely smashes its value, compared to other coups with manuals.
If one isn't interested in back roads or actually driving a Porsche for its intended purpose, that's cool. But I believe one will find that it is not a really great car at doing other things. It is expensive, loud, stiff, and uncomfortable in just about any other role. Should probably buy an M3 or something, they are much easier to live with.
04-25-2018, 12:58 AM
#19
Pro
Hi Ap - we are in the same place mentally and figuratively geography. I am in north Texas - boring straight roads and questioning to some degree this entire adventure (other than I've always wanted it and at 55 time is running out).
I've lived around incl Colorado, New Mexico and Los Angeles and the roads there justify these cars. Here - not so much. Maybe Oklahoma and Arkansas has some twisties???
As mentioned before I have the D810 and 850 and the Zeiss Otus set (as well as many others). Without a doubt this is the finest DSLR setup in the world and there are subtleties that the Otus lenses can do that no other lenses come close to. But even then, I am sometimes tempted by Phase One and other MF digitals but I think it's like the 997.2 and Turbo point, double the money to capture that last few percent ? Nah.... I'm good.
"the relentless pursuit of perfection" is a sucker bet. I've lived long enough to know that. (other than getting a Singer but my wife refuses to become a stripper to raise the funds)
I've lived around incl Colorado, New Mexico and Los Angeles and the roads there justify these cars. Here - not so much. Maybe Oklahoma and Arkansas has some twisties???
As mentioned before I have the D810 and 850 and the Zeiss Otus set (as well as many others). Without a doubt this is the finest DSLR setup in the world and there are subtleties that the Otus lenses can do that no other lenses come close to. But even then, I am sometimes tempted by Phase One and other MF digitals but I think it's like the 997.2 and Turbo point, double the money to capture that last few percent ? Nah.... I'm good.
"the relentless pursuit of perfection" is a sucker bet. I've lived long enough to know that. (other than getting a Singer but my wife refuses to become a stripper to raise the funds)
Last edited by swingwing; 04-25-2018 at 12:59 AM. Reason: Added word.
04-25-2018, 02:23 AM
#20
Nordschleife Master
Still new to the forum and the 997 world but after looking at 100s of 997s currently for sale my sense is that the price difference between 997.1s and 2s is less than $10k and rarely in the $15-20k range many people cite. (but may have been realistic in the past)
There are hardly ever straight apples to apples comparisons but as a theoretical example a 2008 Carrera S with 50k in miles is almost always less than $10k less than a 2009 Carrera (non-s) that is nearly similarly equipped.
It's not necessary in my opinion to do an S to S comparison because the 2009 Carrera equals or exceeds 2008 and earlier S specs.
Of course, it's easy to find examples where this is not the case and some might insist that S to S comparisons should be done across the generations but even then the delta seems to be just over $10k.
Last but not least, there are many threads on Rennlist where the cost of 20-40 extra hp are debated and how it affects 0-60 and top line performance - most of those debates lead to the conclusion that these rounding error increments in hp don't translate into significantly better performance.
To breach the 4.0 0-60 in a significant way requires drastically reducing the 997s weight (as some Tesla S drivers are doing now) or buying a turbo.
For me, the logical choice on a very emotional decision is to buy a Gen 2 and be willing to pay in the range of a $7 -12k premium in doing so with a Carrera occupying the lower half of that range and an S the upper half.
Your thoughts ?
There are hardly ever straight apples to apples comparisons but as a theoretical example a 2008 Carrera S with 50k in miles is almost always less than $10k less than a 2009 Carrera (non-s) that is nearly similarly equipped.
It's not necessary in my opinion to do an S to S comparison because the 2009 Carrera equals or exceeds 2008 and earlier S specs.
Of course, it's easy to find examples where this is not the case and some might insist that S to S comparisons should be done across the generations but even then the delta seems to be just over $10k.
Last but not least, there are many threads on Rennlist where the cost of 20-40 extra hp are debated and how it affects 0-60 and top line performance - most of those debates lead to the conclusion that these rounding error increments in hp don't translate into significantly better performance.
To breach the 4.0 0-60 in a significant way requires drastically reducing the 997s weight (as some Tesla S drivers are doing now) or buying a turbo.
For me, the logical choice on a very emotional decision is to buy a Gen 2 and be willing to pay in the range of a $7 -12k premium in doing so with a Carrera occupying the lower half of that range and an S the upper half.
Your thoughts ?
04-25-2018, 06:15 AM
#21
Rennlist Member
Still new to the forum and the 997 world but after looking at 100s of 997s currently for sale my sense is that the price difference between 997.1s and 2s is less than $10k and rarely in the $15-20k range many people cite. (but may have been realistic in the past)
There are hardly ever straight apples to apples comparisons but as a theoretical example a 2008 Carrera S with 50k in miles is almost always less than $10k less than a 2009 Carrera (non-s) that is nearly similarly equipped.
It's not necessary in my opinion to do an S to S comparison because the 2009 Carrera equals or exceeds 2008 and earlier S specs.
Of course, it's easy to find examples where this is not the case and some might insist that S to S comparisons should be done across the generations but even then the delta seems to be just over $10k.
Last but not least, there are many threads on Rennlist where the cost of 20-40 extra hp are debated and how it affects 0-60 and top line performance - most of those debates lead to the conclusion that these rounding error increments in hp don't translate into significantly better performance.
To breach the 4.0 0-60 in a significant way requires drastically reducing the 997s weight (as some Tesla S drivers are doing now) or buying a turbo.
For me, the logical choice on a very emotional decision is to buy a Gen 2 and be willing to pay in the range of a $7 -12k premium in doing so with a Carrera occupying the lower half of that range and an S the upper half.
Your thoughts ?
There are hardly ever straight apples to apples comparisons but as a theoretical example a 2008 Carrera S with 50k in miles is almost always less than $10k less than a 2009 Carrera (non-s) that is nearly similarly equipped.
It's not necessary in my opinion to do an S to S comparison because the 2009 Carrera equals or exceeds 2008 and earlier S specs.
Of course, it's easy to find examples where this is not the case and some might insist that S to S comparisons should be done across the generations but even then the delta seems to be just over $10k.
Last but not least, there are many threads on Rennlist where the cost of 20-40 extra hp are debated and how it affects 0-60 and top line performance - most of those debates lead to the conclusion that these rounding error increments in hp don't translate into significantly better performance.
To breach the 4.0 0-60 in a significant way requires drastically reducing the 997s weight (as some Tesla S drivers are doing now) or buying a turbo.
For me, the logical choice on a very emotional decision is to buy a Gen 2 and be willing to pay in the range of a $7 -12k premium in doing so with a Carrera occupying the lower half of that range and an S the upper half.
Your thoughts ?
2. If you want Auto/PDK, only choice is .2
3. If you care about GPS, Phone integration, choice is .2
4. If you care about better exhaust/engine noise, choice is clearly .1
5. If you care about LED light looks, then choice is .2
EVERYTHING ELSE is personal!
So, it all depends on EXACTLY what matters to YOU most. I'd say, in the used market, it's more about WHICH SPECIFIC car, color, options, condition makes YOU feel the best! There could be a gorgeous 997.1 with great options that you may fall in love with, or a 997.2 with better GPS that you cannot live without... so it's basically up to you, to find the RIGHT car that you fall in love with!
Best of luck!
04-25-2018, 08:06 AM
#22
You’ve started so many threads here that the phrase “Paralysis by Analysis” is front and center. I live in the DFW area too and have found lots of interesting roads here on BMW club drives (PCA chapter has them too). You just have to work a little bit. As far as car choices go, I’m a very happy first-time Porsche owner with an ‘09 base Carrera 6MT Arctic Silver on black. Found it on Autotrader in Gainesville FL. I’m third owner and bought it with 35k miles for $42k. The cars are out there. PCA has a 6 month Test Drive membership for $40 that gives you access to member contact info on ads. Excellence Magazine has ads, along with a good Buyer’s Guide with model info and current market values. Good luck with your hunt.
04-25-2018, 08:46 AM
#23
Nordschleife Master
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These are the types of generalizations that can cause confusion on these internet forums. The IMS bearing failure rate for the early two-row bearing is <1%. Likewise, the failure rate for the later large single-row bearings is <1%. The interim small, single-row bearings have a failure rate on the order of 5-10%. Bore scoring is a problem with many brands of engines.
04-25-2018, 09:07 AM
#24
So I have read this before, anyone care to elaborate? I drove a 991.1 w/ PSE and the noise was just intoxicating. I have read that the 997.2, even with PSE, is the most subdued between all the 997's and 991's in terms of engine note, and have read that the 997.1 had the best engine note, even without PSE, and particularly amazing if you can score one with PSE. What does everyone think on this one?
04-25-2018, 09:08 AM
#25
04-25-2018, 10:20 AM
#26
Swingwing and SandWedge you are absolutely 100% correct.
In my work I often do surveying and data analysis and was considering doing (offering) the same with the 997 forum and Porsches in general to make a buying/pricing guide to take in all of the variables (condition, age, mileage, history, options, colors, etc) and then I realized - none of that matters.
Porsches aren't fungible and they aren't logical decisions, they are purely EMOTIONAL and most every buyer and seller knows this.
For me, $5k is a rounding error especially over the long term. The right car (a 997.2 in my case and color and option choices) will be worth the going rate.
(Swingwing, I've already admired your car in the 'silver thread and would gladly buy yours from you today - cash. I could be in Colleyville by 11:00 after I get my haircut). (grin)
So it's not P by A or any other psychology - just learning the motivations and having patience for the right car to come along.
Wpgb - you seem bitter and cynical - I'm learning here, what are you doing to add value to the conversation ?
In my work I often do surveying and data analysis and was considering doing (offering) the same with the 997 forum and Porsches in general to make a buying/pricing guide to take in all of the variables (condition, age, mileage, history, options, colors, etc) and then I realized - none of that matters.
Porsches aren't fungible and they aren't logical decisions, they are purely EMOTIONAL and most every buyer and seller knows this.
For me, $5k is a rounding error especially over the long term. The right car (a 997.2 in my case and color and option choices) will be worth the going rate.
(Swingwing, I've already admired your car in the 'silver thread and would gladly buy yours from you today - cash. I could be in Colleyville by 11:00 after I get my haircut). (grin)
So it's not P by A or any other psychology - just learning the motivations and having patience for the right car to come along.
Wpgb - you seem bitter and cynical - I'm learning here, what are you doing to add value to the conversation ?
04-25-2018, 10:25 AM
#27
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by sandwedge
This sounds a bit like someone I know who's been shopping for a 997 for well over 2 years now. Frankly, between the spread sheets, the statistics and sales history he's got stored and keeps adding to I doubt he'll ever buy. I've lost count now on the cars he's passed on because they were "overpriced" based on his data collection. I've told him to his face that I think it's kind of sad that he keeps depriving himself of owning and driving his dream car but he's obsessed with the idea that he may be overpaying. Pricing these cars is not an exact science. Never was and never will be with all the variables involved. You already have the big picture so find what's close to what you're looking for, have it inspected and if clean, don't let it get away from you over a couple of thousand $. My 2c.
Last edited by Austin997.2; 04-26-2018 at 12:52 PM.
04-25-2018, 10:31 AM
#28
As the old sayings go "It's hard to make predictions, especially about the future" and 'roll the dice and take your chances'. - that's what we're looking at.
Other than the 997.1 base with 325 hp (seems low and slow for me to enjoy (5.0 @ 0-60) almost any 997.1 and 997.2 can be a good purchase if it meets your list (or most of them).
We just have to keep looking or as Lyle Alzado once told me in his big booming voice when I was just twerpy little kid trying to cut in line in front of him in an Isla Mujeres grocery store... "PATIENCE".
04-25-2018, 10:34 AM
#29
I wanted a 997.2, so I put my 996 up for sale, it sold in like two days, now I was like oh wow I'm gonna miss it and was never sure when I was gonna find my 997.2. I wanted a Carmax car, a week later one came up that checked all of the boxes, I gave the color a backseat as long as it was a great deal, so I got white. I would have rather had black or dark grey but I didn't want to get hung up on color because that could make my search last for months or years. Better to get the car and enjoy it instead of obsessing over a few grand, life's to short.
04-25-2018, 11:45 AM
#30
Pro
Meusault - have seen cars at RAC Performance in Addison? When I was looking I drooled over a few there but never went to look in person. They’ve got some nice ones but seemed to be on upper end price-wise.