Malfunctioning or Modified Spoiler; Report your 996TT Actual Driving Experiences
06-01-2017, 12:03 PM
#17
Pro
Thread Starter
I have more data than you do; I have my own experiences.
Why do you want to prevent actual data collection, reports of individuals, on this issue?
Are you so opposed to actually USING your brain, considering other points of view, that you need to prevent others from doing the same?
Honestly, your posts constitute online harassment. Go Away.
Why do you want to prevent actual data collection, reports of individuals, on this issue?
Are you so opposed to actually USING your brain, considering other points of view, that you need to prevent others from doing the same?
Honestly, your posts constitute online harassment. Go Away.
06-01-2017, 12:04 PM
#18
Race Director
The spoiler in my 2003 Turbo started acting up, not raising evenly IIRC. I disabled the spoiler temporarily by removing the spoiler fuse (which also disabled the engine compartment lid latch motor).
I tried to avoid obtaining the speed at which the spoiler would deploy because this would have a warning light on. Given where I live and drive I was not always successful.
Granted I never got that much above the deployement speed (73mph actual, 75mph indicated) maybe just 10mph but the car never manifested any untoward behavior at speed above which the inoperable spoiler would have been deployed but I don't believe that in any way suggests the spoiler is useless or for show.
There is more than just keeping the car stable and on the road at speed. There is the very real need to ensure/encourage air flow through the engine compartment lid at speed. That Turbo engine generates a heck of a lot of heat at speed and while a lot of the heat is of course removed by the coolant the exhaust system can only have its heat removed by air flow and the Turbo exhaust system needs considerable air flow through the engine compartment to remove the considerable heat from the exhaust system.
I suspect that at the speed at which the spoiler deploys and at some rather much higher speed the amount of downforce generated to keep the car stable is rather low -- though it does increase with speed -- but the amount of air flow that its deployment and operation encourages through the engine compartment is very important in helping keep engine compartment temperature under some reasonable level.
Thus I encourage every Turbo owner to if the spoiler acts up to get it fixed or replaced so it works properly. I would also advise caution when addiing some aftermarket wing/spoiler from some manufacturer that doesn't provide some assurance it actually does provide down force comparable to the that provided by the factory spoiler.
There have been write ups regarding the downforce the Turbo's aerodynamics provide. Official numbers from Porsche have been quoted. My experience is these write ups are rather common just before or at the model's release but mention of any specific benefit is scarce to non-existent after a while.
I know from monitoring (via an OBD2 data logger) of the Turbo's coolant temperature under a variety of operating and ambient temperature conditions -- including operating in 118F/119F ambient temperature -- the Turbo's cooling system and its aerodynamics that help direct air flow through the radiator ducts (and intercoolers and engine compartment) is superb. The Turbo has some very fine aerodynamics.
I tried to avoid obtaining the speed at which the spoiler would deploy because this would have a warning light on. Given where I live and drive I was not always successful.
Granted I never got that much above the deployement speed (73mph actual, 75mph indicated) maybe just 10mph but the car never manifested any untoward behavior at speed above which the inoperable spoiler would have been deployed but I don't believe that in any way suggests the spoiler is useless or for show.
There is more than just keeping the car stable and on the road at speed. There is the very real need to ensure/encourage air flow through the engine compartment lid at speed. That Turbo engine generates a heck of a lot of heat at speed and while a lot of the heat is of course removed by the coolant the exhaust system can only have its heat removed by air flow and the Turbo exhaust system needs considerable air flow through the engine compartment to remove the considerable heat from the exhaust system.
I suspect that at the speed at which the spoiler deploys and at some rather much higher speed the amount of downforce generated to keep the car stable is rather low -- though it does increase with speed -- but the amount of air flow that its deployment and operation encourages through the engine compartment is very important in helping keep engine compartment temperature under some reasonable level.
Thus I encourage every Turbo owner to if the spoiler acts up to get it fixed or replaced so it works properly. I would also advise caution when addiing some aftermarket wing/spoiler from some manufacturer that doesn't provide some assurance it actually does provide down force comparable to the that provided by the factory spoiler.
There have been write ups regarding the downforce the Turbo's aerodynamics provide. Official numbers from Porsche have been quoted. My experience is these write ups are rather common just before or at the model's release but mention of any specific benefit is scarce to non-existent after a while.
I know from monitoring (via an OBD2 data logger) of the Turbo's coolant temperature under a variety of operating and ambient temperature conditions -- including operating in 118F/119F ambient temperature -- the Turbo's cooling system and its aerodynamics that help direct air flow through the radiator ducts (and intercoolers and engine compartment) is superb. The Turbo has some very fine aerodynamics.
06-01-2017, 12:14 PM
#19
Three Wheelin'
One day, after band camp, my spoiler light came on and it didn't go up. It made me sad. So there you have it, undeniable proof that the spoiler function affects the driving experience, even at city driving speeds. The other one is .5 rho * V squared.
Last edited by Third-Reef; 06-01-2017 at 12:47 PM.
06-01-2017, 12:14 PM
#20
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Asking questions to clarify the data you are using constitutes "online harassment"? What about your statement above...this one: "I have every right to pose any question or questions I desire, same as you.".
06-01-2017, 12:18 PM
#21
It's a common problem that the cup holders in these cars break. Please tell me what beverage and how many fluid ounces were in said beverage. I'm collecting data in order to determine the need for a cup holder.
Ill start with my experience:
It was a warm summer day in July and while the ac was keeping me cool I decided to stop in for 32 oz Dr. pepper. To my dismay the sheer weight of the frosty beverage caused a stress fracture. It is in my expert opinion that cup holders add no redeemable quality and should forever be banned.
car: 2002 996 turbo
ambient outside temp: 98 Fahrenheit
beverage size: 32 ounces
beverage type: Dr. Pepper
dominant hand: right
Ill start with my experience:
It was a warm summer day in July and while the ac was keeping me cool I decided to stop in for 32 oz Dr. pepper. To my dismay the sheer weight of the frosty beverage caused a stress fracture. It is in my expert opinion that cup holders add no redeemable quality and should forever be banned.
car: 2002 996 turbo
ambient outside temp: 98 Fahrenheit
beverage size: 32 ounces
beverage type: Dr. Pepper
dominant hand: right
Last edited by Atrox; 06-01-2017 at 12:40 PM.
06-01-2017, 12:30 PM
#22
Drifting
I would like to hear from those who have modified their cup holders what their experience has been.
Has it it allowed you to carry different types of beverages or just simply larger drinks? Does the temperature of the drink impact the structure of the modified cup holders?
Has it it allowed you to carry different types of beverages or just simply larger drinks? Does the temperature of the drink impact the structure of the modified cup holders?
06-01-2017, 12:35 PM
#23
You pose an interesting question regarding liquid temperatures. My data collection formula did not account for fluid temp variations. I will adjust my spread sheet to reflect these variables.
06-01-2017, 12:55 PM
#24
Drifting
This may explain it:
The linear expansion of a given solid can be calculated according to the formula δ L = aL O Δ T. The Greek letter delta (d) means "a change in"; hence, the first figure represents change in length, while the last figure in the equation stands for change in temperature. The letter a is the coefficient of linear expansion, and L O is the original length.
Suppose a bar of lead 5 meters long experiences a temperature change of 10°C; what will its change in length be? To answer this, a (3.0 · 10 −5 /°C) must be multiplied by L O (5 m) and δ T (10°C). The answer should be 150 & 10 −5 m, or 1.5 mm. Note that this is simply a change in length related to a change in temperature: if the temperature is raised, the length will increase, and if the temperature is lowered by 10°C, the length will decrease by 1.5 mm.
The linear expansion of a given solid can be calculated according to the formula δ L = aL O Δ T. The Greek letter delta (d) means "a change in"; hence, the first figure represents change in length, while the last figure in the equation stands for change in temperature. The letter a is the coefficient of linear expansion, and L O is the original length.
Suppose a bar of lead 5 meters long experiences a temperature change of 10°C; what will its change in length be? To answer this, a (3.0 · 10 −5 /°C) must be multiplied by L O (5 m) and δ T (10°C). The answer should be 150 & 10 −5 m, or 1.5 mm. Note that this is simply a change in length related to a change in temperature: if the temperature is raised, the length will increase, and if the temperature is lowered by 10°C, the length will decrease by 1.5 mm.
06-01-2017, 01:37 PM
#25
Intermediate
Join Date: Aug 2016
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And this is why owners of various brands often get bad names...
I'm not really qualified to speak much on the different spoilers, as I've only had experience with the fixed stock wing, but I haven't experienced any ill effects. The rear feels somewhat more planted than the front, but my car also isn't stock. I may look into either repairing it or stepping to the e-ram kit, but neither is a high priority on my list. I probably will never see a road course and I don't drive at 10/10ths on the street, so the fixed position is fine for me right now.
I'm not really qualified to speak much on the different spoilers, as I've only had experience with the fixed stock wing, but I haven't experienced any ill effects. The rear feels somewhat more planted than the front, but my car also isn't stock. I may look into either repairing it or stepping to the e-ram kit, but neither is a high priority on my list. I probably will never see a road course and I don't drive at 10/10ths on the street, so the fixed position is fine for me right now.
06-01-2017, 04:45 PM
#26
Pro
Thread Starter
The spoiler in my 2003 Turbo started acting up, not raising evenly IIRC. I disabled the spoiler temporarily by removing the spoiler fuse (which also disabled the engine compartment lid latch motor).
I tried to avoid obtaining the speed at which the spoiler would deploy because this would have a warning light on. Given where I live and drive I was not always successful.
Granted I never got that much above the deployement speed (73mph actual, 75mph indicated) maybe just 10mph but the car never manifested any untoward behavior at speed above which the inoperable spoiler would have been deployed but I don't believe that in any way suggests the spoiler is useless or for show.
There is more than just keeping the car stable and on the road at speed. There is the very real need to ensure/encourage air flow through the engine compartment lid at speed. That Turbo engine generates a heck of a lot of heat at speed and while a lot of the heat is of course removed by the coolant the exhaust system can only have its heat removed by air flow and the Turbo exhaust system needs considerable air flow through the engine compartment to remove the considerable heat from the exhaust system.
I suspect that at the speed at which the spoiler deploys and at some rather much higher speed the amount of downforce generated to keep the car stable is rather low -- though it does increase with speed -- but the amount of air flow that its deployment and operation encourages through the engine compartment is very important in helping keep engine compartment temperature under some reasonable level.
Thus I encourage every Turbo owner to if the spoiler acts up to get it fixed or replaced so it works properly. I would also advise caution when addiing some aftermarket wing/spoiler from some manufacturer that doesn't provide some assurance it actually does provide down force comparable to the that provided by the factory spoiler.
There have been write ups regarding the downforce the Turbo's aerodynamics provide. Official numbers from Porsche have been quoted. My experience is these write ups are rather common just before or at the model's release but mention of any specific benefit is scarce to non-existent after a while.
I know from monitoring (via an OBD2 data logger) of the Turbo's coolant temperature under a variety of operating and ambient temperature conditions -- including operating in 118F/119F ambient temperature -- the Turbo's cooling system and its aerodynamics that help direct air flow through the radiator ducts (and intercoolers and engine compartment) is superb. The Turbo has some very fine aerodynamics.
I tried to avoid obtaining the speed at which the spoiler would deploy because this would have a warning light on. Given where I live and drive I was not always successful.
Granted I never got that much above the deployement speed (73mph actual, 75mph indicated) maybe just 10mph but the car never manifested any untoward behavior at speed above which the inoperable spoiler would have been deployed but I don't believe that in any way suggests the spoiler is useless or for show.
There is more than just keeping the car stable and on the road at speed. There is the very real need to ensure/encourage air flow through the engine compartment lid at speed. That Turbo engine generates a heck of a lot of heat at speed and while a lot of the heat is of course removed by the coolant the exhaust system can only have its heat removed by air flow and the Turbo exhaust system needs considerable air flow through the engine compartment to remove the considerable heat from the exhaust system.
I suspect that at the speed at which the spoiler deploys and at some rather much higher speed the amount of downforce generated to keep the car stable is rather low -- though it does increase with speed -- but the amount of air flow that its deployment and operation encourages through the engine compartment is very important in helping keep engine compartment temperature under some reasonable level.
Thus I encourage every Turbo owner to if the spoiler acts up to get it fixed or replaced so it works properly. I would also advise caution when addiing some aftermarket wing/spoiler from some manufacturer that doesn't provide some assurance it actually does provide down force comparable to the that provided by the factory spoiler.
There have been write ups regarding the downforce the Turbo's aerodynamics provide. Official numbers from Porsche have been quoted. My experience is these write ups are rather common just before or at the model's release but mention of any specific benefit is scarce to non-existent after a while.
I know from monitoring (via an OBD2 data logger) of the Turbo's coolant temperature under a variety of operating and ambient temperature conditions -- including operating in 118F/119F ambient temperature -- the Turbo's cooling system and its aerodynamics that help direct air flow through the radiator ducts (and intercoolers and engine compartment) is superb. The Turbo has some very fine aerodynamics.
Thanks very much for your very thoughtful response. I have read many of your posts on this board and you always try to be helpful, and to separate out what you know, and what you believe, think, or hope, to be true. That makes you a very good and trusted resource here, and very helpful to others.
Thank you for your time.
My car came with a Softronics Stage 1 Tune, along with a Durometric OBDII device with a USB port. It occurs to me that I might well be able to do some temperature datalogging myself, with the spoiler I currently have installed, and it might produce some interesting information.
Do you believe that the equipment I have, combined with a laptop, might be capable of doing this datalogging? Do you have any suggestion of software I might use, other than what I can download from the Durametric website? I have an older version of DPLOT, also, which I could probably coax my laptop into running in Windows Compatibility Mode.
Thanks!
06-01-2017, 04:50 PM
#27
Pro
Thread Starter
And this is why owners of various brands often get bad names...
I'm not really qualified to speak much on the different spoilers, as I've only had experience with the fixed stock wing, but I haven't experienced any ill effects. The rear feels somewhat more planted than the front, but my car also isn't stock. I may look into either repairing it or stepping to the e-ram kit, but neither is a high priority on my list. I probably will never see a road course and I don't drive at 10/10ths on the street, so the fixed position is fine for me right now.
I'm not really qualified to speak much on the different spoilers, as I've only had experience with the fixed stock wing, but I haven't experienced any ill effects. The rear feels somewhat more planted than the front, but my car also isn't stock. I may look into either repairing it or stepping to the e-ram kit, but neither is a high priority on my list. I probably will never see a road course and I don't drive at 10/10ths on the street, so the fixed position is fine for me right now.
My own experience with the extensive road trip I took over the last 2 weeks leads me to believe that from a driving stability and road handling standpoint, that the fixed aftermarket spoiler on my car functions well. On the other hand, I am interested to see if there is any effect on engine cooling. I am going to consider trying to do some datalogging similar to what Macster reported above, to see if there is anything remarkable there to be concerned with.
Thanks again.
06-01-2017, 06:20 PM
#28
Instructor
I went to get dynamat installed in the back interior of my car Tuesday. I noticed when I arrived at the place and looked in my rearview mirror to admire my Schnell aftermarket spoiler, that it was dipping to one side. Apparently one ram retracted and the other didn't when I slowed the last time. Didn't notice at all until I looked back there. So I guess the install of the e-rams I purchased a few weeks back now goes to the top of my to-do list. I've been holding off because the e-Ram kit install requires scavenging the twist-lock screws from the stock rams, which I would prefer not to do, and requires cutting wires and splicing into existing wires, which I also am hesitant to do, since I'm sure to pick the wrong wire even with detailed instructions.
06-01-2017, 07:18 PM
#29
Pro
Thread Starter
I went to get dynamat installed in the back interior of my car Tuesday. I noticed when I arrived at the place and looked in my rearview mirror to admire my Schnell aftermarket spoiler, that it was dipping to one side. Apparently one ram retracted and the other didn't when I slowed the last time. Didn't notice at all until I looked back there. So I guess the install of the e-rams I purchased a few weeks back now goes to the top of my to-do list. I've been holding off because the e-Ram kit install requires scavenging the twist-lock screws from the stock rams, which I would prefer not to do, and requires cutting wires and splicing into existing wires, which I also am hesitant to do, since I'm sure to pick the wrong wire even with detailed instructions.
:-)
06-01-2017, 07:27 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
I still don't understand the argument or hypothesis, here, or what "intelligent discussion" you are hoping to find.
Are you positing that aerodynamics is just a bunch of hullabaloo? That Porsche just put those pages in the manual because of the lawyers? That most of us don't drive our TURBO friggin' PORSCHES at a speed where aerodynamics would matter?
I am all for questioning things, but at a certain point, I'm at a loss as to how you can ignore common sense (e.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern...arth_societies).
Are you positing that aerodynamics is just a bunch of hullabaloo? That Porsche just put those pages in the manual because of the lawyers? That most of us don't drive our TURBO friggin' PORSCHES at a speed where aerodynamics would matter?
I am all for questioning things, but at a certain point, I'm at a loss as to how you can ignore common sense (e.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern...arth_societies).