westsiderkg

My 996tt is up there, but honestly...the NSX I used to have was the best handling. It was lowered though and had a sport suspension, so maybe if I upgraded the 996tt suspension I'd think the same too. The NSX was underpowered though by far relative to the 996tt. Out of all my cars, its one of only a few I'd want back.

Silberwolfen

I always had a thing for the NSX---beautiful car. Probably the only thing that kept me away from them back in the day (and in Corvettes) was the power. I wanted thrust over corner carving since there were very few places that I could go out and hammer a car on back twisty roads. Track time back in the day was not an option for me. But as I grew older the overall thrust of cars became less and less important and being able to control it meant more. Meaning---something fun to drive on public roads without traveling at speeds to die or lose my drivers license. Guess I got that stuff out of my system racing motorcycles. One of the big reasons that I went to the 911T was the AWD factor. The 911s are very planted in most all driving conditions (minus snow) whereas my Vettes were deathtraps in anything other than dry pavement. They did not handle wet pavement well---especially with OEM tires. The traction control would kick on and off constantly. But this is getting off the point.

Anyway, this week I am going with the PSS10s and having a good installer work on the car.

Kevin

Weight plays into the handling debate...

Here is a good link to a few lap times..

http://fastestlaps.com/cars/porsche_996_turbo.html

fly2low

John
I will try to be more focused with my answer. Putting on the PS10s will show immediate improvement. However, there is still a lot ot be gotten from swaybar adjustment and alignment. To get it "right" takes alot of work between you and a good mechanic. You are resposible for giving him meaningful reports on what you are feeling, and he should be able to make the adjustments to get what you want. Since you raced motorcycles, I am sure you know what I mean. Camber, tow, spring rates, pressure in the shocks, stiffness of sways, etc. are all in play.
Hope this line of responses can stay on track of answering your question.

Dock

The OP has stated previously that he isn't building a track car. As I recall he isn't even thinking about taking the car to the track but maybe a couple of times a year (if that). This is why I attempted to clarify whether he was seeking input regarding objective or subjective assessments. When you posted lap times at the Ring I pointed out that the Turbo's time was on OEM suspension. Obviously this OEM data is #1 available on line (I'm sure he could find it if he were not already aware of it), and #2 the data doesn't do much in the way of identifying what objective improvements could be expected with his new suspension. Additionaly, the NSX lap time you originally posted did not appear to be correct and I offered the NSX-R time and the link for reference.

My lean towards offering him subjective inputs is because based on his previous posts it appeared that simply offering lap time data was not what he was looking for. Additionally, since he appears to be more focused in street use, it seems the subjective differences between OEM and his new suspension would be more helpful.

There are people who hang their hat only on objective data when discussing handling (many of them found on Vette forums), but for street driving where the OEM suspension is WAY more than adequate, it's the subjective improvements that can be more important when evaluating changes that are made.

Kevinmacd

Dock - if you read what he was doing he is upgrading his suspension, not keeping it stock he is going with the PSS10's!

Dock

Of course I know that he is upgrading his suspension. Why would I have said this if I didn't?

" the data doesn't do much in the way of identifying what objective improvements could be expected with his new suspension"

"...it seems the subjective differences between OEM and his new suspension would be more helpful"

Kevinmacd

Subjective is just that opinion with no data to back it up! Good data points reflect the actual capability, whether you want to believe it or not, no good enginner would design based on subjective data. What they would do is design on objective data and show the improvements to overcome opinionated subjective data.

dacbap

+1 Very well said! I've been on Daytona, Sebring, Homestead and PBIR, put the top down and cruise home

Dock

Like I said, if you want to see plenty of people who don't understand the importance of subjective handling qualities just visit some of the Vette forums. Or better yet, spend some time researching reviews of the 911 over the years to get an idea of the praise that car gets for its steering and chassis feedback, generally bested only by Ferrari. The 911s steering and chassis feedback/feel are legendary. There are LOTS of people who place these qualities way above any objective data like skid pad g, slalom, or lap times.

There are many (most?) comparison tests where the 911 doesn't finish first using only objective test results, but where it does end up in first place overall when the subjective assessments are included; the subjective assessments being so high that they make up for the objective-only results.

SSST

Subjectively, my car handles better with the X73. Objectively, I bet my car handles better with the X73.

Subjectively my 335 was much easier to drive near the limits, and was a lot of fun. Objectively, my TT will kick the 335's **** both in a straight line and through the twisties. It's also a lot of fun to drive. Just in a different way.

My point being this debate is moving through ridiculous and into sublime.

Dock

OK, we're moving in the right direction. Now all you have to do is describe the subjective differences between OEM and modified to get to what John was likely after. I know you have X73 and he will have PSS10, but the description of the subjective differences he can expect with PSS10 is probably helpful from those with PSS10.

And IMO the discussion of subjective handling qualities is very Porsche-centric.

CincyScott

On the subjective front, I think my stock 2.7 Boxster outhandled any of my stock 996's, Turbo's included. I don't think though that it outhandled my 993TT that had the OE ROW 030 suspension (Bilstein HD's, stiffer springs, bigger sways). I'm looking to get that feel back with bigger sways next having already done the PSS9's.

Objectively, I'd bet the facts I stated above probably probably aren't the case (or maybe they are by some of the standards) for any of the cars, as it would seem unlikely that Porsche would make a base Boxster handle better than a similar year 996TT.

sd996tt

These kind of discussions are very good, IMO. Whenever you talk about the qualities of a track car, there are many different elements, from lap times to driving enjoyment, "feel," safety, even style and comfort may come into play. I have two cars now that are very different, and I love having both of them on track. The Caterham arguably "handles" as good as any car out there. When I chose to buy it, I knew that it wouldn't ultimately be the fastest car out there, because it doesn't have any downforce, but it is well balanced, light, quick and insanely fun. It rewards good driving and doesn't punish mistakes. Because of the lack of downforce and the good balance, you can push it beyond the limit of grip in almost any situation and bring it back. Alternatively, a car like a Radical might be the ultimate in "handling" to some because the addition of downforce allows better grip and lap times. Some might say a GT-R has the best handling for a street legal car, because the computerized driving aids cause the car to go where you point it. In this sense, handling becomes very subjective. Of these three cars, I prefer the type of handling that the Caterham provides.

The 996tt, which I am still fairly new to, is a blast to drive on track. With suspension improvements, I think it has very good feedback, and am able to push it to the limits without feeling like it's going to kill me if I reach them. There are many platforms that will give you great handling and great lap times, and the 996tt is not a cheap way to go fast. But, all considered, I am very happy with the 996tt as my choice for a second track car. I have had a number of Corvettes. I love them. I could go fast for cheaper in them. But I also think the 996tt is a lot of car for the money, and I am definitely happy driving it! And it is quicker than most people expect! Both the Caterham and the Porsche meet the goals of having an enjoyable day on track, quick lap times, safety, association with a good group of people, handling characteristics that allow me to continue to learn without punishing my mistakes, and reliability.

To answer the OP's question of how the 996tt with suspension improvements stacks up against other track cars in handling, I would say very good. As some have said here, one key is to dial in the proper balance for the suspension. The "feel" of a track car is going to be very different from one to the next. I like the feel of my 996 on the track.


And as far as the tire thing - don't you love the fact that car magazines make all sorts of comparisons on cars, rarely giving much deference to the tires that they are on, which as we all know makes a large difference. I've seen them dwell on 10ths of seconds comparing cars on very different tires without given any credit to that crucial element!

SSST

Subjectively, or is it objectively, the fact that a TT can get around a track like the Ring faster than a NSX is meaningless as it relates to which car handles better. The power advantage of the TT has to be considered on a track like that.

I've never driven an NSX, but if someone who has driven both says the NSX handles better... that is not an unbelievable statement.