Clarification on 996 TT wastegate upgrades?
07-21-2008, 09:02 PM
#1
Drifting
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Elk Grove, California
Posts: 2,647
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Clarification on 996 TT wastegate upgrades?
I've been seriously considering a flash and upgrading the wastegates and going to a 5 bar FPR. When I called the supplier I always use to inquire about any upgrades or parts, they checked the PET and showed that the same wastegate number applies to the 996TT, the X50, and the GT2. (???)
If that's the case, what do you get if you buy a "wastegate upgrade"? I've been reading on this and other forums about simply cranking down a few mm's on the wastegate rod nuts to run it from the stock .9 (X50) up to a 1.0 or 1.1, but to do it just a tad bit at a time. If this is the case, and you can get a bit more boost by doing a "conservative and common sense" tweak.....what are you getting when you buy the upgraded wastegates? This question is couched in the fact that I don't plan on setting my sights on the big HP numbers, (looking @550) therefore I shouldn't be pushing the envelope too much.
If that's the case, what do you get if you buy a "wastegate upgrade"? I've been reading on this and other forums about simply cranking down a few mm's on the wastegate rod nuts to run it from the stock .9 (X50) up to a 1.0 or 1.1, but to do it just a tad bit at a time. If this is the case, and you can get a bit more boost by doing a "conservative and common sense" tweak.....what are you getting when you buy the upgraded wastegates? This question is couched in the fact that I don't plan on setting my sights on the big HP numbers, (looking @550) therefore I shouldn't be pushing the envelope too much.
07-21-2008, 10:23 PM
#3
Burning Brakes
The upgrade cuts open the stock and replaces the spring. This changes the spring constant, whereas tightening the nut changes the preload/starting point.
You get the springs, and most dramatically you get the parts that put the cut open wastegate back together. I got the UMW version. Not sure what else is out there.
Unfortunately, I did these, along with exhaust and diverters. Actually even without the flash, the car was significantly more powerful. (I say unfortunately since I cannot give you a true "wastegate upgrade alone adds X" testimonial.)
A
You get the springs, and most dramatically you get the parts that put the cut open wastegate back together. I got the UMW version. Not sure what else is out there.
Unfortunately, I did these, along with exhaust and diverters. Actually even without the flash, the car was significantly more powerful. (I say unfortunately since I cannot give you a true "wastegate upgrade alone adds X" testimonial.)
A
07-21-2008, 10:42 PM
#4
Regardless of Oak's sense of humor, you will definitely feel a significant change in the boost you are able to sustain. The stock springs just are not capable of holding the higher boost...doesn't matter how you adjust them. Also got my kit from Kevin.
07-22-2008, 01:25 AM
#5
Drifting
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Elk Grove, California
Posts: 2,647
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
So....when it comes to your wastegates...are they part of your "bone stock" setup?
I'm still a bit in the dark about what difference you would feel between tightening the rod nuts as opposed to buying Kevin's (or any other vendor) modified wastegates....if, as Adam says, tightening the nuts changes the preload starting point....and you can get 1.1 bar...why would you need the modified one? Sorry to appear so dense, but 1.0 or 1.1 bar, would be the target setting I'm looking for regardless of how I got there. Or are you saying that the stock unit with tightened nuts will get you to 1.1 bar but won't hold you there?
Or is Oak being facetiously correct? It seems interesting that you can get what sounds like noticeable performance enhancement out of something as simple as a wastegate....even without the flash.
I'm still a bit in the dark about what difference you would feel between tightening the rod nuts as opposed to buying Kevin's (or any other vendor) modified wastegates....if, as Adam says, tightening the nuts changes the preload starting point....and you can get 1.1 bar...why would you need the modified one? Sorry to appear so dense, but 1.0 or 1.1 bar, would be the target setting I'm looking for regardless of how I got there. Or are you saying that the stock unit with tightened nuts will get you to 1.1 bar but won't hold you there?
Or is Oak being facetiously correct? It seems interesting that you can get what sounds like noticeable performance enhancement out of something as simple as a wastegate....even without the flash.
07-22-2008, 01:53 AM
#6
Some clarification. Without a flash (X50) will get you .8-.9. So you will need a flash to get 1.0-1.2. Now the wastgates (which BTW are a safety mechanism to prevent your compressor from being destroyed... releasing pressure by diverting exhaust away from the turbos) are a simple valve that opens and closes (actuated by the ECU). The mechanism is held closed by a spring...the weaker the spring the less ability for the valve to stay closed (thus releasing pressure...prematurely). The upgraded wastegate kits essentially install a stronger spring that can now handle the pressure. You then adjust them (as you would the stock gates) so they release appropriately (equal for both turbos and at a reasonable safety limit).
07-24-2008, 02:07 PM
#7
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Chuck, First off, there are few tuners that actually have different files for X50 cars with upgraded wastegates and with the 5bar FPR.. So lets break it down, to maximize your ECU tuning, the tune needs to have a 5bar FPR required for tuning. Anotherwords if you ask your tuner "ah does this file require a 5 bar".. >what is there answer??
You have also tossed into the mix the wastegate kit.. I provide a engineered solution for the X50 wastegates where I have manufactured a specific spring for this application. The missing link to what many folk fail to grasp is "forget the boost readings" The primary importance is to build more torque in the lower midrange. This is done by keeping the internal "gate" inside of the turbine housing shut. It is like a barn door. The exhaust entering the turbine housing from the headers wants to and will push it open. When the ECU calls for just a little "boost correction" the gate starts to swing open. The problem is, as you have found out. KKK manufactures similar "Actuators" the "springs" inside of the actuators do not have the ability to shut the "gate" quick enough or 100%.. We want the gate to close. When it is open the turbine wheel slows down.. If we need boost, the turbocharger is working double time trying to supply the boost, and overcome the open gate with exhaust gases pouring out or bleeding off the turbine wheel energy. If you have a engineered actuator system, the ability to close the gate is NOW in effect. And all the exhaust energy is directed at the turbine wheel. Allowing it to generate boost.. Early boost will translate into early torque. A benifit of this system is higher boost readings..
You have also tossed into the mix the wastegate kit.. I provide a engineered solution for the X50 wastegates where I have manufactured a specific spring for this application. The missing link to what many folk fail to grasp is "forget the boost readings" The primary importance is to build more torque in the lower midrange. This is done by keeping the internal "gate" inside of the turbine housing shut. It is like a barn door. The exhaust entering the turbine housing from the headers wants to and will push it open. When the ECU calls for just a little "boost correction" the gate starts to swing open. The problem is, as you have found out. KKK manufactures similar "Actuators" the "springs" inside of the actuators do not have the ability to shut the "gate" quick enough or 100%.. We want the gate to close. When it is open the turbine wheel slows down.. If we need boost, the turbocharger is working double time trying to supply the boost, and overcome the open gate with exhaust gases pouring out or bleeding off the turbine wheel energy. If you have a engineered actuator system, the ability to close the gate is NOW in effect. And all the exhaust energy is directed at the turbine wheel. Allowing it to generate boost.. Early boost will translate into early torque. A benifit of this system is higher boost readings..
Trending Topics
07-24-2008, 02:34 PM
#8
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 1,241
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
kevin...great response and explanation. if you have a std. tt, non x-50, and wish to flash, would you benefit also from the fpr and wastegate upgrade kit?? from your explanation it would appear so. thanks.
Last edited by manny_g; 07-24-2008 at 07:19 PM.
07-24-2008, 03:09 PM
#9
Drifting
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Elk Grove, California
Posts: 2,647
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Kevin: First of all, thanks for taking quite a bit of time to sit down and explain this. I'm sure that this has clarified the issue for more folks than just me....and it would appear that to maximize a tune, one should probably consider the upgrades. My warranty runs out at the end of August...at which time I'll be seriously considering the tune.
07-24-2008, 07:22 PM
#11
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 1,241
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i am in the same shoes as chuck...but in my case my cpo lasts until sept. of next year. however you can be sure that i will be contacting kevin as that date approaches.
07-24-2008, 07:44 PM
#12
I have Kevin's tune, Wastegate Kit and 5bar FPR.
My car is an animal...
I love it...
Chicks dig it...
It made the hair grow back in my bald spot...
Mike
My car is an animal...
I love it...
Chicks dig it...
It made the hair grow back in my bald spot...
Mike
07-24-2008, 07:59 PM
#14
You guys are funny...I modded my car a couple weeks after I bought it (new in 04). My local P dealer is excellent and is quite aware of my mods and have never screwed me because of them...although I have not had any problems related to mods. I have enjoyed the extra power now for >3 years...don't wait.
07-24-2008, 11:20 PM
#15
Couldn't agree more...
As many know, My car came into my ownership already modified with Kevin's turbos and bunch of other mods, but the previous owner opted for the Upsolute tune... The car performed admirably, with the stock exhaust and gutted cats, it turned 510 WHP and 532# torque.
That said, it was laggy, had poor throttle response and just was not the car it is now. With Kevin's tune, the 5Bar fpr and the spring kit, the car was transformed into a completely different vehicle. Sure, it killed the clutch that the Upsolute tune had no issues dealing with... But it gave me the chance to upgrade to the LWFW and get the right setup to harness and fully utilize the power.
Now the car has so much more throttle response and makes so much more power between "off idle" and redline. But the biggest difference is below the curve. Drivability is amazing. I can lug the car in traffic with ease, as I did today in Washington DC metro traffic... Car is so much easier to drive now and more power everywhere... What's not to love?
Mike
As many know, My car came into my ownership already modified with Kevin's turbos and bunch of other mods, but the previous owner opted for the Upsolute tune... The car performed admirably, with the stock exhaust and gutted cats, it turned 510 WHP and 532# torque.
That said, it was laggy, had poor throttle response and just was not the car it is now. With Kevin's tune, the 5Bar fpr and the spring kit, the car was transformed into a completely different vehicle. Sure, it killed the clutch that the Upsolute tune had no issues dealing with... But it gave me the chance to upgrade to the LWFW and get the right setup to harness and fully utilize the power.
Now the car has so much more throttle response and makes so much more power between "off idle" and redline. But the biggest difference is below the curve. Drivability is amazing. I can lug the car in traffic with ease, as I did today in Washington DC metro traffic... Car is so much easier to drive now and more power everywhere... What's not to love?
Mike
Last edited by Mikelly; 07-25-2008 at 08:30 AM.