FixedWing

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by mwilson:
<strong>Can anyone tell for sure if this has a roll bar in it or not? I cannot see one in the pictures, but I am not the best at this.

Any idea what it is worth as it sits?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Too late Michael. The thread has been thoroughly hi-jacked.

FWIW, I can't see a roll bar either but the shape of the roof suggests that there must be one. However, the roof is very strong at that point in any case and I wonder if the roof might bend in that shape anyway?

I would say that the car is still worth quite a bit. It is a valuable car and will surely be fixed. One day it will be someone's pride and joy again and they'l probably never know its history.

S.

Carlos

Pete, since you seem so well informed as to my abilities or lack thereof let me introduce a phrase to you, timed event. If you lie to the insurance company and tell them that a de is some sort of driver training program then yeah you would be covered by many policies. But if you tell the truth and explain that it is a timed event where the goal is to produce the fastest time around the track, the list gets real short. So why dont you uses some of you apparently "UNLIMITED" resources and post some details. 'Cause as for myself "It is a simple fact that many insurance companies cover you during DEs" = bull**** without some details.

Greg Fishman

How is this for details, Carlos. I have many other stories but this is one that i was personally involved in.
I had a claim paid from an accident that happened at a DE three years ago. I let a friend drive my car and he lost it at Road America. Shelter Insurane paid and I told them upfront that it was on a race track but it wasn't a race, etc. They paid the claim (insurance follows the car regardless of who is driving).

Carlos and George are full of mis-information which is nothing new or unusual.

Greg Fishman

DE's are not timed events, Time trials are and I agree those would not be covered under most insurance plans.
If you look at any registration information or rules for an event it will not have any provisions for timing and racing is prohibited.

Check out this link for Peachstate PCA's rules for their DE's
<a href="http://www.platz.com/pca/peachstate/pca_de/peachstate_de_program.htm" target="_blank">http://www.platz.com/pca/peachstate/pca_de/peachstate_de_program.htm</a>

There are no time sheets and instructors will be with all begineer and most intermediate students. Again Carlos, you are showing your ignorance on something you have no experience with.

HBdirtbag

i'll verify that many Insurance company's will cover DE events. Some will even discount your insurance afterwards because of the class you have taken. They also do the same when you take defensive driving classes and such.

George 911-V8

GREG: Do you or do you not know what your best time is at road atlanta. Did you spend all that money to not know how fast you are going? If you do have lap times which I pretty sure you do was that at a DE or a scca race. I'm only saying what I was told by state farm insurance. However you word it reminds me of Bill Clinton and sex. Bill Clinton say he did not have sexual relations with that woman. When I'm at my pca meetings and the subject of de's comes up racing is the only thing on their mind.

Curious George

Greg Fishman

George: Yes I do know what my best laptimes are at Road ATlanta. During a race they give us time sheets that show us. During a DE if I want to know what kind of times I am turning I have someone time me (not the sanctioning body or sponsor of the event) or I use my hot lap timer. Usually I don't bother with times because of the traffic and more restrictive passing rules.

Maybe some DE's are races in disquise but the ones I go to are truely learning environments. When I want to test and tune my car I usually do that on a open lapping day, timing is still up to me.

Pete.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Carlos:
<strong>Pete, since you seem so well informed as to my abilities or lack thereof let me introduce a phrase to you, timed event. If you lie to the insurance company and tell them that a de is some sort of driver training program then yeah you would be covered by many policies. But if you tell the truth and explain that it is a timed event where the goal is to produce the fastest time around the track, the list gets real short. So why dont you uses some of you apparently "UNLIMITED" resources and post some details. 'Cause as for myself "It is a simple fact that many insurance companies cover you during DEs" = bull**** without some details.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Carlos, nice attempt at backpedaling.

Apparently your cluelessness is sinking in just a bit.

DEs, by definition, aren't timed events. It has nothing to do with telling the truth or not.

It's a simple fact. Why are struggling so hard with this issue?

Geoffrey

One of our club members wrecked his 85 Carrera at a DE event this past summer and was completely honest about the incident with his insurance company. They gave him $28,000 for the car which in my opinion was about $8,000 over value. It does depend on the state, insurance company, and your agent can certainly make a difference.

I was looking to move my car insurance to my home owners insurance policy (travelers) to save a little, but Traveler's in NY won't cover DE. My current car insurance company (Encompass) will.

FixedWing

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by George 911-V8:
<strong>GREG: Do you or do you not know what your best time is at road atlanta. Did you spend all that money to not know how fast you are going?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Well since the thread has been thoroughly ruined by this off-topic bickering I might as well join in.

In Europe, the insurance is much the same. One of the primary reasons for using Nürburgring is that it is open to the public and therefore insurance applies. Many people crash there, make claims and are paid promptly.

Some time and some don't time. If you time then you risk having a claim denied. Most polices have prohibitions on racing or timed events. The German police are very mater-of-fact about their reports and will report a running stopwatch in a wreck if they find it.

So what many will do is to videotape their lap and time it after the fact (when they are sure that no claims will be made).

And no, I don't know how fast I am there.

Remember, insurance is a contract. It is all about transfering risk. It is good practice to retain those risks which you can afford to suffer and which cannot be cheaply transfered. It is also good practice to transfer those risks which make sense to transfer. No one makes you buy collision insurance. If for whatever reason you don't like the rates then self-insure the risk.

Oh, and the notion that accidents at DE events are going to affect your rates is just ludicrous. The percentage of claims an insurer faces from a DE event wouldn't even be measurable. Probably less than a penny on your rates. So this debate really isn't about money. So then what is this really all about???

S.

RSRRacer

DEs are not timed events. Most auto policies will pay for an accident when all facts are divulged. The total property losses of all DEs since 1980 would probably not equal the loss over one week in LA or NYC.

Carlos and George don't get it. If ignorance is bliss then they are in heaven.

And before I hear anything about a 600HP Monster or "putting money where my mouth is" I will be at one of about a half dozen tracks this year, and a few events will even allow hybrid mutations to enter. Maybe find me at a Viper Days event, at VIR or Mid Ohio as an instructor and come run with us. Then once my puny 320HP "racer wanna be" *** has been handed to me then the talking can begin and I'll take all I deserve.

Chris B

Konrad 996tt

I told an acquaintance I had given up on this thread, but....

YOU GO CHRIS!! <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" />
What uncharacteristic spunk, must be the new car!

I believe we have discussed this topic ad nauseam <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />
Things we know:
- DE events are not sanctioned time events
- DE event participants assume risk
- Regular insurance will not cover participation in a competition or timed event
- You can buy specialized insurance for races and timed events
- This risk of participating in DE events is unacceptable to some
- George and Carlos should not participate in DE events

Things we don't know:
- Did the car on the original picture have a roll bar?
- What is the salvage value of the car on the original picture?
- How did this accident happen?

Let's go back to discussing the pics, get my drift.....
<img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />

Carlos

Thank you Fixed wing!!! You have plainly stated the bottom line. Lie to your insurance company & tell them that it is about driving instruction not lap times and your claim will be paid. If de's are about driving instruction not playing boy racer, I'm thinking that the only driver instruction program with more crashes is where they teach big dollar body guards evasive skills likke j turns & spins. I've got and old axiom that I've stood by for years, if you are going to feed me a line of bull****, at least get your story believable enough so that if I dont call you on it, I wont look bad.

Hey Greg, call Shelter Ins. back & tell them "I forgot to tell you before but all my laps were timed both from inside the car and by another idividual and the goal is to tune both car and driver to go as fast as possible, and see if they want their money back.

FixedWing

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Carlos:
<strong>Thank you Fixed wing!!! You have plainly stated the bottom line. Lie to your insurance company.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">How do you get that from anything that I've said???

S.

Greg Fishman

"Hey Greg, call Shelter Ins. back & tell them "I forgot to tell you before but all my laps were timed both from inside the car and by another idividual and the goal is to tune both car and driver to go as fast as possible, and see if they want their money back."

Sorry Carlos, wrong again.
There was zero timing involved in this incident. And even if it was what does it matter? As long as it was not a sanctioned or timed event it should be covered. This was not in my race car either, so you can't (nor the insurance) state it was "preparation for racing".
I really don't think you understand (nor want to) what a DE is, which is just fine with me.