cjv / s car go
06-22-2003, 12:57 PM
#46
Instructor
Bill, all - I don't want to hijack this thread, which is about cjv's amazing 996 project. Feel free to email me (ben@treynor.com) if you have Q's about the Viper, and I'll be happy to answer them.
06-22-2003, 02:30 PM
#47
CJV - I greatly repsect your advice and council that you freely give to this board. Your belief in the system of sharing info (not every bit - very pro business of you <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" /> ) is an asset not only to the people on the 996TT board, but to others who wish to make the very best of what they havein ANY porsche model.
Having said that - I do believe that you seem to have enough money in this 996TT to at least cover a good majority, possibly 3/4 of the price of Cararra GT, and I am no longer "suprised" that you have put in for that bugatti. I cannot stress how proud I am that you have invested this much time and money in "Car guy" stuff and development instead of simply buying a Mclaren. I have this feeling, however, that the mclaren would be hard pressed to pass your 996TT on a road course with much left to spare.
Will any of the testing for your car be located in the "Southern" part of Southern California?
Also, when you say that you beefed the driveline up - meaning the torque tubes or driveshafts, in your vehicle, who did the development? There are some 928s comming down the pipeline with over 600rwhp, and I think there may be some "I blew up my Torque tube" discussions on the 928 list very soon.
Thank you,
Having said that - I do believe that you seem to have enough money in this 996TT to at least cover a good majority, possibly 3/4 of the price of Cararra GT, and I am no longer "suprised" that you have put in for that bugatti. I cannot stress how proud I am that you have invested this much time and money in "Car guy" stuff and development instead of simply buying a Mclaren. I have this feeling, however, that the mclaren would be hard pressed to pass your 996TT on a road course with much left to spare.
Will any of the testing for your car be located in the "Southern" part of Southern California?
Also, when you say that you beefed the driveline up - meaning the torque tubes or driveshafts, in your vehicle, who did the development? There are some 928s comming down the pipeline with over 600rwhp, and I think there may be some "I blew up my Torque tube" discussions on the 928 list very soon.
Thank you,
06-22-2003, 04:04 PM
#49
Three Wheelin'
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Chad,
I am really confused....I am not as much an expert as some of these other guys but am a bit unclear on what your new charge cooling exactly does...Are you using NOS basically??
Also, waht have you done to your car so that the front AWD differential does not shred with all this power?? I am interested because I plan on bringing my car up to 650HP but do not want to 'break' anything. Techart's level 4 kit good for 646HP requires that the car be converted to RWD, which to me defeats the purpose as I am a big fan of he insane grip of the AWD.
I am really confused....I am not as much an expert as some of these other guys but am a bit unclear on what your new charge cooling exactly does...Are you using NOS basically??
Also, waht have you done to your car so that the front AWD differential does not shred with all this power?? I am interested because I plan on bringing my car up to 650HP but do not want to 'break' anything. Techart's level 4 kit good for 646HP requires that the car be converted to RWD, which to me defeats the purpose as I am a big fan of he insane grip of the AWD.
06-22-2003, 11:21 PM
#50
Good stuff. I'd be addicted to the "bottle" I'd think.
What about a closed system with air-water intercoolers using this freezing system? Go from the bulb to the water in a circulating system.
Just get a bigger bottle. Don't the serious guys use 20lb bottles?
What about a closed system with air-water intercoolers using this freezing system? Go from the bulb to the water in a circulating system.
Just get a bigger bottle. Don't the serious guys use 20lb bottles?
06-23-2003, 01:54 AM
#51
Burning Brakes
Chad,
So you aren't using NO2 in the traditional sense, hence your comment "...if any of your vented gas was ingested by your air intake." If I understand correctly, you are using an external tank of compressed gas (NO2 or CO2) to expand and cool an aerodynamic bulb in the intake air stream. This is analogous to the cooling coils in an air conditioning evaporator (AC's cooling effect on humans is analagous to the your setup's cooling effect on the engine inhaling). The difference is you do not draw excess energy from the engine to drive a compressor in a closed loop AC system. So, the size of the tank is critically important for the intended usage (number of times you can "zap" the intake air stream with a cooling effect) will work before you need to refill.
On a related topic, I often wondered if it would be of any benefit to replace the intercooler with an "evaporator like component" tied to an auxilliary AC system (compressor, condenser and evaporator). I would have thought that the energy lost to drive the theoretical compressor pump could not be regained by the cooler intake air. Remember, energy is neither created or destroyed. In this respect, I can appreciate your approach. It does make me wonder though, if you are going to carry a bottle of "coolant" (NO2 or CO2), why not simply use the NO2 in the classic manner and derive additional hp from burning it? I would have to think that the HP gain from burning NO2 would be much higher than the HP gain from using NO2 to cool the intake air. Your thoughts?
So you aren't using NO2 in the traditional sense, hence your comment "...if any of your vented gas was ingested by your air intake." If I understand correctly, you are using an external tank of compressed gas (NO2 or CO2) to expand and cool an aerodynamic bulb in the intake air stream. This is analogous to the cooling coils in an air conditioning evaporator (AC's cooling effect on humans is analagous to the your setup's cooling effect on the engine inhaling). The difference is you do not draw excess energy from the engine to drive a compressor in a closed loop AC system. So, the size of the tank is critically important for the intended usage (number of times you can "zap" the intake air stream with a cooling effect) will work before you need to refill.
On a related topic, I often wondered if it would be of any benefit to replace the intercooler with an "evaporator like component" tied to an auxilliary AC system (compressor, condenser and evaporator). I would have thought that the energy lost to drive the theoretical compressor pump could not be regained by the cooler intake air. Remember, energy is neither created or destroyed. In this respect, I can appreciate your approach. It does make me wonder though, if you are going to carry a bottle of "coolant" (NO2 or CO2), why not simply use the NO2 in the classic manner and derive additional hp from burning it? I would have to think that the HP gain from burning NO2 would be much higher than the HP gain from using NO2 to cool the intake air. Your thoughts?
06-23-2003, 02:20 AM
#52
Burning Brakes
Chad,
So once you hit the button, or if it is computer controlled once the gas is actuated, it expands to atmospheric pressure in the bulb, thus cooling the bulb and then it continues through additional plumbing and is dumped over the intercoolers. I would think it would not even be cold any longer by the time the heat transfer takes place at the bulb. As the the intake air cools, the CO2 warms. Heat transfer mechanics 101. Is the wasted gas that showers over the intercoolers still cold? Have you checked the CO2 shower temperature under normal operating conditions? It seems like quite a bit of effort and expense for something that may not even be worth it. I am only referring to the treatment of the spent gas after the bulb. The bulb idea is brilliant!!
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
What airflow reduction will you experience from the presence of the bulb?
A predominate thought continues to plague me. With all of the hp gaining tweaks you have been doing, what is the ulimate limiting factor on the 911 boxer engine? At some point I would have to think that the stress on the engine's internals will be too great. I question the strength of connecting rods, rod bearings, wrist pins, etc., etc. Let's say you can increase air flow and gas delivery infinitely, what will eventually "give"?
So once you hit the button, or if it is computer controlled once the gas is actuated, it expands to atmospheric pressure in the bulb, thus cooling the bulb and then it continues through additional plumbing and is dumped over the intercoolers. I would think it would not even be cold any longer by the time the heat transfer takes place at the bulb. As the the intake air cools, the CO2 warms. Heat transfer mechanics 101. Is the wasted gas that showers over the intercoolers still cold? Have you checked the CO2 shower temperature under normal operating conditions? It seems like quite a bit of effort and expense for something that may not even be worth it. I am only referring to the treatment of the spent gas after the bulb. The bulb idea is brilliant!!
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
What airflow reduction will you experience from the presence of the bulb?
A predominate thought continues to plague me. With all of the hp gaining tweaks you have been doing, what is the ulimate limiting factor on the 911 boxer engine? At some point I would have to think that the stress on the engine's internals will be too great. I question the strength of connecting rods, rod bearings, wrist pins, etc., etc. Let's say you can increase air flow and gas delivery infinitely, what will eventually "give"?
06-23-2003, 02:40 AM
#53
Instructor
Wait a moment - do I understand from KPV's question that this car is running stock engine internals?? That seems... brave... considering the amount spent on other facets of the performance.
06-24-2003, 10:06 PM
#55
Instructor
%^$%&&%$ DRAT. I wanted to see the S car go, but I'm taking my engineering team to an offsite Thursday evening.
You will, of course, videotape and post your gorgeous 996 tearing up the 'strip?
You will, of course, videotape and post your gorgeous 996 tearing up the 'strip?
06-26-2003, 03:26 AM
#56
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cjv,
You've gotta convince Wilber to do a shootout against yours. Your car needs a worthy playmate, and I think his is it.
Different setups for different purposes, but the common thread between your cars is 700+ hp. I would think Excellence would be all over it.
I can see the cover now-- "The 700 Club!"
I believe your 2 cars are the ONLY 996TT with that much power and still streetable!
You've gotta convince Wilber to do a shootout against yours. Your car needs a worthy playmate, and I think his is it.
Different setups for different purposes, but the common thread between your cars is 700+ hp. I would think Excellence would be all over it.
I can see the cover now-- "The 700 Club!"
I believe your 2 cars are the ONLY 996TT with that much power and still streetable!
06-26-2003, 11:54 AM
#58
Instructor
2.9 seconds from 1/8th to 1/4 !? OK, I definitely want to see this timeslip. I'm guessing 10s since you had traction problems off the line, but your trap speeds must have been crazy fast.
Anyway, congrats on joining the "I got banned from Infineon" group. It's a badge of honor
Anyway, congrats on joining the "I got banned from Infineon" group. It's a badge of honor
06-26-2003, 12:16 PM
#59
Drifting
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So, what you are effectively doing is placing a copressed gas intercooler in series with your air/air intercooler.
I take it you have tried & rejected water injection, water/air intercooling or bigger & more effective intercoolers??
Seems that squirting cool, compressed gasses over the intercooler is akin to water/air intercooling, but more complicated and thus more likely to fail.
If you continue with the bulb idea, is the bulb going to offer enough surface area for efficient heat exchange to take place?? Clearly, the trade off is surface area VS flow restriction, but if you are going to spend $$$$$$$$$$$$ on developing this sort of thing, why not re-design the inlet ducts to incorporate the cooling ducts on their periphery and not interfere with air flow....
Good luck - sounds like great fun, spending time & $$$$ developing new ways to make HP...
I take it you have tried & rejected water injection, water/air intercooling or bigger & more effective intercoolers??
Seems that squirting cool, compressed gasses over the intercooler is akin to water/air intercooling, but more complicated and thus more likely to fail.
If you continue with the bulb idea, is the bulb going to offer enough surface area for efficient heat exchange to take place?? Clearly, the trade off is surface area VS flow restriction, but if you are going to spend $$$$$$$$$$$$ on developing this sort of thing, why not re-design the inlet ducts to incorporate the cooling ducts on their periphery and not interfere with air flow....
Good luck - sounds like great fun, spending time & $$$$ developing new ways to make HP...
