KPG

Dock, would you agree that perhaps the Vflow isnt the root cause, but perhaps a catalyst for underlying issues? It isnt a complicated swap and yes a hose or elec connection could be bumped, but the fact that simply removing the Vflow has returned the car to normal tells me two things are at work here: 1 The Vflow is at fault, 2: the Vflow has caused an underlyingissue to arise. Either case the Vfow is the issue. I would think given the equal number of happy Vflow customers, #2 is likely the issue. Kevin

shane.emc

I'm taking my car to the dealer Monday to get it checked out. So my question to all of you is this. What parts or hoses specifically should I make sure they check for leaks?

Dock

Well of course I would agree..it's one of the things I said in a previous post here in this thread.

Dock

You don't have the data to support this.

Your statement quoted here is like saying because some people are allergic to penicillin, penicillin is not a reliable product.

Due to some preexisting condition(s), some cars are allergic to the V-Flow. As far as I know, these preexisting conditions have yet to be nailed down.

Joe Weinstein

I would guess that our MAF units are not all alike, and some work better than
others. Maybe some have wider abilities to handle more flow than others,
and weaker ones cause CELs with the increased flow. I would tend to doubt
that a leak would blossom with the V-Flow but have no effect with the stock box.
The air box is pre-boost, not post-boost, so any effect on the high pressure
air hoses would be subtle, nothing that would cause a drop from 1 bar to .5.
That has to be the limp-mode.
MHO,
Joe

9Eleven

Honestly, is the minimal benefit worth the risk? What true numbers are there to validate the use of this product. Unproven claims by the manufacturer? What is the best performance enhancement that you will receive by installing this product? 5 hp, maybe 10? And that is far from being an established fact. I really don't see the point of spending 700 dollars for a possible problem with little, or in most cases, no benefit. Marketing mumbo jumbo IMHO. Porsche knew what they were doing when they built their airbox. Ask any reputable tuner/racer, they will tell you the truth.

Dock

Dynos showing a 15-20 wheel horsepower increase for tuned Turbos.

Dock

They sure did...they restricted airflow.

9Eleven

Dock, your reputation and opinion on this forum is highly respected. I too look to you on occasion for guidance, but where is a dyno showing that? I've got a feeling they were provided by the manufacturer. TPC just had a guy remove an EVO airbox and a Fabspeed exhaust and return it after the Dyno showed no increase in hp, just noise. I saw it with my own two eyes.

If airflow has been increased, lets measure the amount of air going in before and after the installation. 15 to 20 hp at the wheel? I guess then that the x50 package is a joke, since a new airbox can virtually do the same as bigger turbos and a remap. The x51 has a completely new exhaust system, a twin airbox with matching decklid, new cylinder heads, and a new ECU for 20 to 25 horses.

Sorry, I don't believe it. Call me a sceptic, but there was a response to a letter to the editor in the last Excellence magazine discussing this same topic. I tend to believe the editor. He wrote, "I find it hard to believe you can get 23 horsepower from an intake change alone." I also don't believe in UFO's, the Loch Ness monster, Bigfoot or instant diets by taking a pill, but some people will swear to it. What can I say, I'm a doubting Thomas.

Dock

The numbers I used are what I remember from IA's post here regarding actual dyno results they recorded. I also recall that those numbers were achieved on "tuned" Turbos, and that the results achieved on non-modified (ECU) Turbos was less.

What else would you use besides dyno results to confirm the increases?

9Eleven

Airflow meter. Trap speed is usually the only and true indicator of horsepower. I don't think that an alleged gain of only 20 horses would have an impact on trap speed. So you really could not use that measurement. You and I know that dynos can be manipulated. Pulls on different days, different cars, temperature manipulation. I am just leery of an alleged horsepower gain claimed by the vendor standing to gain from selling his product. How about an independent test, by a respected tuner. RUF, Manthey, 9ff, using an airflow meter. Lets see the difference in air density or flow between the stock and the modified box. Just looking for an unbiased study with real life results.

Dock

Didn't Todd provide air flow data when he first posted (over on 6speed I believe) about the V-Flow?

And not an engine dyno?

BTW, Trap speed is also dependent on many variables.

KPG

It seems that real world data on many products for our vehicles are lacking hard, unbiased testing. I am hardly a conspiracy theorist, but would a vendor post a dyno sheet that showed little or no power increase? It is not in their interest to do so. I agree 100% with 9eleven when he cited the X50 and X51 powr kits as an example of how difficult and expensive it is even for the manufacturer to conjure up 20-30 hp. Granted they are bound by emissions and regulatory issues when they modify a car, but they are in this to make a profit. If they could graba quick 20+ hp with a relatively cheap airbox it would have been done by now. I still have a hard time reconciling vehicles that run well, but have the Vflow bring underlying 'Issues" to the fore front. Just some random thoughts. Kevin G

9Eleven

I haven't seen those results, and they are not publicized on their website. Evo is far from what I call an indenpendent source, they are the manufacturer. I'll have to disagree with you on trap speed. I can run my car 10 times and the trap speed will vary only a mile or two per hour. I've seen engine dyno's fluctuate 20 to 50 horsepower, plus or minus.

Listen Dock, I'm not trying to cast aspersions here. I'm sure some people really believe these claims. Some people believe that humans are causing global warming, maybe we are. I just believe that there really isn't enough independent evidence to support a 5, 10, or 20 horsepower claim, but that is just me.

Dock

And it's different for other vehicles?

Difficult? Come on, Porsche could have released the 997 Turbo with another 50 horsepower with nothing but some easy ECU programming...zeros and ones stuff. They could modify exhausts, air boxes too. Their issue is not the engineering, it's marketing.