Rebuilding valve Lifters? Can it be done well?
02-12-2017, 11:00 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Rebuilding valve Lifters? Can it be done well?
Hello,
I was wondering what you guys thought about rebuilding valve lifters. I have a bunch and have seen how simple in design they are and believe they could be rebuilt and cleaned out. There are videos of people dismantling them and letting them soak in carb cleaner over night then rebuilding them. What do you guys think?
Good way to save $500 or I should´nt consider it?
I was wondering what you guys thought about rebuilding valve lifters. I have a bunch and have seen how simple in design they are and believe they could be rebuilt and cleaned out. There are videos of people dismantling them and letting them soak in carb cleaner over night then rebuilding them. What do you guys think?
Good way to save $500 or I should´nt consider it?
02-13-2017, 11:50 AM
#3
The though had crossed my mind when I was doing my engine refresh, but after thinking about the time and effort vested in doing the deed in comparison to the price of new ones, I just opted to purchase new ones and roll with it. Also presuming the new ones would be good meaning no issues as far as reassembly and internal parts wear, I opted to just buy new ones. Also the fact that I bought INA brand lifters that were identical in every shape and form to ones installed in the motor for around $320. I chose to go with new lifters regardless.
02-13-2017, 12:00 PM
#4
Race Director
Hello,
I was wondering what you guys thought about rebuilding valve lifters. I have a bunch and have seen how simple in design they are and believe they could be rebuilt and cleaned out. There are videos of people dismantling them and letting them soak in carb cleaner over night then rebuilding them. What do you guys think?
Good way to save $500 or I should´nt consider it?
I was wondering what you guys thought about rebuilding valve lifters. I have a bunch and have seen how simple in design they are and believe they could be rebuilt and cleaned out. There are videos of people dismantling them and letting them soak in carb cleaner over night then rebuilding them. What do you guys think?
Good way to save $500 or I should´nt consider it?
There are a number of areas that could need to be addressed. The face upon which the cam lobe presses. This has to have a topology and surface finish that can tolerate the pressure of the lobe swiping across it time after time for well, in some cases hundreds of thousands of miles of usage and uncoutable engine revolutions.
The zero lash feature works by relying up a very tight sliding fit that in my experience "works" even with no oil. The two cylinders each have special metalurgy/heat treatment to withstand the rigors of one end having to take the force of the lifter face being pushed down by the cam lobe and the other end having to push down on the valve stem end. These ends have to not fracture, break, or mushroom when the engine is started and zero lash feature has bled down and the zero lash feature is not working to take up the valve lash/clearance and to withstand this until oil flow and pressure replenishes the oil in any of the zero lash adjusters. While this happens pretty quickly consider this happening over and over again for again hundreds of thousands of miles.
There is the zero lash check ball and its spring. This is not a field serviceable item.
Likewise the hardware that makes up the low to high lift feature is not field serviceable.
About the only thing one could possibly do if the lifter was just contaminated with "dirt" and was otherwise in good working order would be to thoroughly clean it out, flush out the lifter body to remove any dirt or debris it had possibly accumulated then recharge it with oil and install it back in the engine.
Really though given how much labor is involved to get at the lifters one is better off just replacing them with new if it is believed the existing lifters are no longer working properly.
02-13-2017, 12:40 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
The though had crossed my mind when I was doing my engine refresh, but after thinking about the time and effort vested in doing the deed in comparison to the price of new ones, I just opted to purchase new ones and roll with it. Also presuming the new ones would be good meaning no issues as far as reassembly and internal parts wear, I opted to just buy new ones. Also the fact that I bought INA brand lifters that were identical in every shape and form to ones installed in the motor for around $320. I chose to go with new lifters regardless.
02-13-2017, 02:43 PM
#7
Shameful Thread Killer
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
General consensus is usually that a lifter is mated to a lobe for life. Kind of like a piston/ring is mated to a cylinder for life(of the engine).
I'm guessing a lifter that hasn't been in service very long could be cleaned, and reused but the ultimate life of the lifter(and maybe the lobe) would be significantly less than original.
Polishing the lifter face and checking for parallelism with a collimated light and optical glass flat might benefit, but at additional cost. Kind of like grinding/polilshing one's own telescope lenses, except super flat. lolz...
I'm guessing a lifter that hasn't been in service very long could be cleaned, and reused but the ultimate life of the lifter(and maybe the lobe) would be significantly less than original.
Polishing the lifter face and checking for parallelism with a collimated light and optical glass flat might benefit, but at additional cost. Kind of like grinding/polilshing one's own telescope lenses, except super flat. lolz...
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02-13-2017, 05:43 PM
#8
Drifting
The lifters were upgraded.The tappets jam in the bucket. Easy for them to plug with tiny debris. Not repairable and even if they were you need the upgrade from INA.
The lifters used to be expensive.Long ago I tracked down a substitute using INA references and got a complete set of 24 intended for a BMW.I imported them for a fraction ot the USA cost from England. I believe these are what are sold now by the various parts sources as INA/Shaeffler. They may not be branded Porsche but the INA part number should be the same.
But do your own research and use a very,very good oil filter and keep the oil changed regularly/frequently. Dirt is the enemy of the little tappets..
The lifters used to be expensive.Long ago I tracked down a substitute using INA references and got a complete set of 24 intended for a BMW.I imported them for a fraction ot the USA cost from England. I believe these are what are sold now by the various parts sources as INA/Shaeffler. They may not be branded Porsche but the INA part number should be the same.
But do your own research and use a very,very good oil filter and keep the oil changed regularly/frequently. Dirt is the enemy of the little tappets..
02-13-2017, 08:10 PM
#9
Drifting
This is a write-up I did back in 2010 on the lifters for a VarioCam engine. I am not going to re-write it but there is info you might find helpful. I have not looked at current pricing.
Found out some interesting things on the cam lifters that you might also benefit from. First, I tried your technique of compressing the lifters. A few of mine had some movement even before I tried this. Some others seemed to free up some with being compressed, but a few just don't seem to move at all. Based on this I was going to send them off to Flat 6 (for $400 with cores, they say the "normal price" is $500 but they had offered me $400 and would honor this price. Once I thought Jake told me "About $200", but it was off the cuff on the phone one night.), but I thought I would do a little research on the net first. The original part number for the lifters was 996.105.041.50, but it has been superseded with 996.105.041.72. (on 3.6 engines the .72 is the exhaust lifter and there is a different lifter for the intake that lists for about $237. On 3.4's all the lifters, both intake and exhaust are the same). Rennlist shows a price of $17.51 for the old part, and $43.97 for the new number. I started googling the part numbers and found prices from about $34 to over $75. But I also started seeing cross-references to BMW lifters. I found a place called Auto Atlanta that had listings for the part number with 3 different prices from $21 to $44. I called them and talked to someone who said let me check it out and see what is available. In a minute or so he came back with the Febi Bilstein lifters with a price of only $21.90@, so $525.60 for a set of 24.
I thought I would check with Febi so I found their website and started cross referencing. They show a lifter for the 3.4 996 with a cross reference of 996.105.041.72, Febi #23201. But then I looked up there cross reference for a BMW, 2000, X5, and low and behold they have reference numbers for this lifter for BMW (11 32 1 748 884) and Porsche (996.105.041.50, the old Porsche number). Both show as 24mm tall and 33 mm outside diameter. So I start doing search on the BMW part number and start finding the lifter for $16.68, then $15.51, and now a parts house in Michigan that has them for only $12.02@, WOW!! Now I have not talked to them as it was too late today, but they show a Manufacturer of INA and then another name. Maybe aftermarket. But at #12.02 a set of 24 is only $288.48. I am going to call them tomorrow and see who the manufacturer is for these lifters before I order anything.
In any case, the internet can be pretty amazing, a wealth of information if you are persistent. I know that Flat 6 says the "rebuild" them including re-valving that increase the capacity(?) by 5%. But I am thinking that I may just go with new ones.
I will let you know what the place in Michigan says (of course you are welcome to all the names, etc.) but if they are good you might want to think about just replacing yours.
The packages of new lifters came this morning, 3 packages of 8 each, brand new from INA with the BMW part number on the package. Two comments:
1. The old lifters, which were part number 996.105.041.50 were marked on the bottom "INA 577 16." The new lifters have the exact same marking on them, so they are definitely the same lifters. Now there may be an argument that when Porsche went to the 3.6 engine the lifters were upgraded, thus the new part number 996.105.041.72, and the intake lifters were changed entirely (VarioCam Plus). But I figure that if the old style was good enough for all that time, the whole 3.4 production run, then they should be good enough for now.
2. I checked the new lifters, and THERE IS NO MOVEMENT IN ANY OF THEM!! I am thinking that since they arrived bathed in oil from the factory, they have never really been pressurized, and it is the oil pressure that fills them up and expands the little piston/chamber. But I have to admit that I was surprised.
The place I got the lifters last November was All European (alleuro.com). But when I bought them last year they were $12.02 each and now they are listed for $19.88 each. Not sure why the change, you could call them. You have to find them under the BMW part number 11 32 1 748 884. Here is the link to the FEBI Bilstein site where it shows the part as being the same as the old Porsche lifter
http://www.febi.com/en/service/suche...nummer_submit=
However at the higher price you might want to go with the newer lifters if you are going to replace them (I know you might not want to do this at the higher price). Here is a trick for that. Autoatlanta.com has them. However if you search under the 996.105.041.72 number for the new lifter you get prices from about $40-$55. If you search under the old part number 996.105.041.50 you will get a listing for the Boxster showing the SS996.105.041.72 for less than $23. Don't ask me why!
Found out some interesting things on the cam lifters that you might also benefit from. First, I tried your technique of compressing the lifters. A few of mine had some movement even before I tried this. Some others seemed to free up some with being compressed, but a few just don't seem to move at all. Based on this I was going to send them off to Flat 6 (for $400 with cores, they say the "normal price" is $500 but they had offered me $400 and would honor this price. Once I thought Jake told me "About $200", but it was off the cuff on the phone one night.), but I thought I would do a little research on the net first. The original part number for the lifters was 996.105.041.50, but it has been superseded with 996.105.041.72. (on 3.6 engines the .72 is the exhaust lifter and there is a different lifter for the intake that lists for about $237. On 3.4's all the lifters, both intake and exhaust are the same). Rennlist shows a price of $17.51 for the old part, and $43.97 for the new number. I started googling the part numbers and found prices from about $34 to over $75. But I also started seeing cross-references to BMW lifters. I found a place called Auto Atlanta that had listings for the part number with 3 different prices from $21 to $44. I called them and talked to someone who said let me check it out and see what is available. In a minute or so he came back with the Febi Bilstein lifters with a price of only $21.90@, so $525.60 for a set of 24.
I thought I would check with Febi so I found their website and started cross referencing. They show a lifter for the 3.4 996 with a cross reference of 996.105.041.72, Febi #23201. But then I looked up there cross reference for a BMW, 2000, X5, and low and behold they have reference numbers for this lifter for BMW (11 32 1 748 884) and Porsche (996.105.041.50, the old Porsche number). Both show as 24mm tall and 33 mm outside diameter. So I start doing search on the BMW part number and start finding the lifter for $16.68, then $15.51, and now a parts house in Michigan that has them for only $12.02@, WOW!! Now I have not talked to them as it was too late today, but they show a Manufacturer of INA and then another name. Maybe aftermarket. But at #12.02 a set of 24 is only $288.48. I am going to call them tomorrow and see who the manufacturer is for these lifters before I order anything.
In any case, the internet can be pretty amazing, a wealth of information if you are persistent. I know that Flat 6 says the "rebuild" them including re-valving that increase the capacity(?) by 5%. But I am thinking that I may just go with new ones.
I will let you know what the place in Michigan says (of course you are welcome to all the names, etc.) but if they are good you might want to think about just replacing yours.
The packages of new lifters came this morning, 3 packages of 8 each, brand new from INA with the BMW part number on the package. Two comments:
1. The old lifters, which were part number 996.105.041.50 were marked on the bottom "INA 577 16." The new lifters have the exact same marking on them, so they are definitely the same lifters. Now there may be an argument that when Porsche went to the 3.6 engine the lifters were upgraded, thus the new part number 996.105.041.72, and the intake lifters were changed entirely (VarioCam Plus). But I figure that if the old style was good enough for all that time, the whole 3.4 production run, then they should be good enough for now.
2. I checked the new lifters, and THERE IS NO MOVEMENT IN ANY OF THEM!! I am thinking that since they arrived bathed in oil from the factory, they have never really been pressurized, and it is the oil pressure that fills them up and expands the little piston/chamber. But I have to admit that I was surprised.
The place I got the lifters last November was All European (alleuro.com). But when I bought them last year they were $12.02 each and now they are listed for $19.88 each. Not sure why the change, you could call them. You have to find them under the BMW part number 11 32 1 748 884. Here is the link to the FEBI Bilstein site where it shows the part as being the same as the old Porsche lifter
http://www.febi.com/en/service/suche...nummer_submit=
However at the higher price you might want to go with the newer lifters if you are going to replace them (I know you might not want to do this at the higher price). Here is a trick for that. Autoatlanta.com has them. However if you search under the 996.105.041.72 number for the new lifter you get prices from about $40-$55. If you search under the old part number 996.105.041.50 you will get a listing for the Boxster showing the SS996.105.041.72 for less than $23. Don't ask me why!
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erbeier (08-16-2022)
02-14-2017, 12:53 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Wow amazing! Thanks! Found all 24 for $164 with the BMW part number.
This is a write-up I did back in 2010 on the lifters for a VarioCam engine. I am not going to re-write it but there is info you might find helpful. I have not looked at current pricing.
Found out some interesting things on the cam lifters that you might also benefit from. First, I tried your technique of compressing the lifters. A few of mine had some movement even before I tried this. Some others seemed to free up some with being compressed, but a few just don't seem to move at all. Based on this I was going to send them off to Flat 6 (for $400 with cores, they say the "normal price" is $500 but they had offered me $400 and would honor this price. Once I thought Jake told me "About $200", but it was off the cuff on the phone one night.), but I thought I would do a little research on the net first. The original part number for the lifters was 996.105.041.50, but it has been superseded with 996.105.041.72. (on 3.6 engines the .72 is the exhaust lifter and there is a different lifter for the intake that lists for about $237. On 3.4's all the lifters, both intake and exhaust are the same). Rennlist shows a price of $17.51 for the old part, and $43.97 for the new number. I started googling the part numbers and found prices from about $34 to over $75. But I also started seeing cross-references to BMW lifters. I found a place called Auto Atlanta that had listings for the part number with 3 different prices from $21 to $44. I called them and talked to someone who said let me check it out and see what is available. In a minute or so he came back with the Febi Bilstein lifters with a price of only $21.90@, so $525.60 for a set of 24.
I thought I would check with Febi so I found their website and started cross referencing. They show a lifter for the 3.4 996 with a cross reference of 996.105.041.72, Febi #23201. But then I looked up there cross reference for a BMW, 2000, X5, and low and behold they have reference numbers for this lifter for BMW (11 32 1 748 884) and Porsche (996.105.041.50, the old Porsche number). Both show as 24mm tall and 33 mm outside diameter. So I start doing search on the BMW part number and start finding the lifter for $16.68, then $15.51, and now a parts house in Michigan that has them for only $12.02@, WOW!! Now I have not talked to them as it was too late today, but they show a Manufacturer of INA and then another name. Maybe aftermarket. But at #12.02 a set of 24 is only $288.48. I am going to call them tomorrow and see who the manufacturer is for these lifters before I order anything.
In any case, the internet can be pretty amazing, a wealth of information if you are persistent. I know that Flat 6 says the "rebuild" them including re-valving that increase the capacity(?) by 5%. But I am thinking that I may just go with new ones.
I will let you know what the place in Michigan says (of course you are welcome to all the names, etc.) but if they are good you might want to think about just replacing yours.
The packages of new lifters came this morning, 3 packages of 8 each, brand new from INA with the BMW part number on the package. Two comments:
1. The old lifters, which were part number 996.105.041.50 were marked on the bottom "INA 577 16." The new lifters have the exact same marking on them, so they are definitely the same lifters. Now there may be an argument that when Porsche went to the 3.6 engine the lifters were upgraded, thus the new part number 996.105.041.72, and the intake lifters were changed entirely (VarioCam Plus). But I figure that if the old style was good enough for all that time, the whole 3.4 production run, then they should be good enough for now.
2. I checked the new lifters, and THERE IS NO MOVEMENT IN ANY OF THEM!! I am thinking that since they arrived bathed in oil from the factory, they have never really been pressurized, and it is the oil pressure that fills them up and expands the little piston/chamber. But I have to admit that I was surprised.
The place I got the lifters last November was All European (alleuro.com). But when I bought them last year they were $12.02 each and now they are listed for $19.88 each. Not sure why the change, you could call them. You have to find them under the BMW part number 11 32 1 748 884. Here is the link to the FEBI Bilstein site where it shows the part as being the same as the old Porsche lifter
http://www.febi.com/en/service/suche...nummer_submit=
However at the higher price you might want to go with the newer lifters if you are going to replace them (I know you might not want to do this at the higher price). Here is a trick for that. Autoatlanta.com has them. However if you search under the 996.105.041.72 number for the new lifter you get prices from about $40-$55. If you search under the old part number 996.105.041.50 you will get a listing for the Boxster showing the SS996.105.041.72 for less than $23. Don't ask me why!
Found out some interesting things on the cam lifters that you might also benefit from. First, I tried your technique of compressing the lifters. A few of mine had some movement even before I tried this. Some others seemed to free up some with being compressed, but a few just don't seem to move at all. Based on this I was going to send them off to Flat 6 (for $400 with cores, they say the "normal price" is $500 but they had offered me $400 and would honor this price. Once I thought Jake told me "About $200", but it was off the cuff on the phone one night.), but I thought I would do a little research on the net first. The original part number for the lifters was 996.105.041.50, but it has been superseded with 996.105.041.72. (on 3.6 engines the .72 is the exhaust lifter and there is a different lifter for the intake that lists for about $237. On 3.4's all the lifters, both intake and exhaust are the same). Rennlist shows a price of $17.51 for the old part, and $43.97 for the new number. I started googling the part numbers and found prices from about $34 to over $75. But I also started seeing cross-references to BMW lifters. I found a place called Auto Atlanta that had listings for the part number with 3 different prices from $21 to $44. I called them and talked to someone who said let me check it out and see what is available. In a minute or so he came back with the Febi Bilstein lifters with a price of only $21.90@, so $525.60 for a set of 24.
I thought I would check with Febi so I found their website and started cross referencing. They show a lifter for the 3.4 996 with a cross reference of 996.105.041.72, Febi #23201. But then I looked up there cross reference for a BMW, 2000, X5, and low and behold they have reference numbers for this lifter for BMW (11 32 1 748 884) and Porsche (996.105.041.50, the old Porsche number). Both show as 24mm tall and 33 mm outside diameter. So I start doing search on the BMW part number and start finding the lifter for $16.68, then $15.51, and now a parts house in Michigan that has them for only $12.02@, WOW!! Now I have not talked to them as it was too late today, but they show a Manufacturer of INA and then another name. Maybe aftermarket. But at #12.02 a set of 24 is only $288.48. I am going to call them tomorrow and see who the manufacturer is for these lifters before I order anything.
In any case, the internet can be pretty amazing, a wealth of information if you are persistent. I know that Flat 6 says the "rebuild" them including re-valving that increase the capacity(?) by 5%. But I am thinking that I may just go with new ones.
I will let you know what the place in Michigan says (of course you are welcome to all the names, etc.) but if they are good you might want to think about just replacing yours.
The packages of new lifters came this morning, 3 packages of 8 each, brand new from INA with the BMW part number on the package. Two comments:
1. The old lifters, which were part number 996.105.041.50 were marked on the bottom "INA 577 16." The new lifters have the exact same marking on them, so they are definitely the same lifters. Now there may be an argument that when Porsche went to the 3.6 engine the lifters were upgraded, thus the new part number 996.105.041.72, and the intake lifters were changed entirely (VarioCam Plus). But I figure that if the old style was good enough for all that time, the whole 3.4 production run, then they should be good enough for now.
2. I checked the new lifters, and THERE IS NO MOVEMENT IN ANY OF THEM!! I am thinking that since they arrived bathed in oil from the factory, they have never really been pressurized, and it is the oil pressure that fills them up and expands the little piston/chamber. But I have to admit that I was surprised.
The place I got the lifters last November was All European (alleuro.com). But when I bought them last year they were $12.02 each and now they are listed for $19.88 each. Not sure why the change, you could call them. You have to find them under the BMW part number 11 32 1 748 884. Here is the link to the FEBI Bilstein site where it shows the part as being the same as the old Porsche lifter
http://www.febi.com/en/service/suche...nummer_submit=
However at the higher price you might want to go with the newer lifters if you are going to replace them (I know you might not want to do this at the higher price). Here is a trick for that. Autoatlanta.com has them. However if you search under the 996.105.041.72 number for the new lifter you get prices from about $40-$55. If you search under the old part number 996.105.041.50 you will get a listing for the Boxster showing the SS996.105.041.72 for less than $23. Don't ask me why!
02-14-2017, 07:57 PM
#11
Drifting
So you bought BMW # "11 32 1 748 884" ? and you got 24 lifters for $164 - fantastic because they were around $450 at the reduced price !
And you confirmed that # matches 996. 105.041.72 in the INA Interchange list ?
http://www.new-part.com/product/bmw-...FQ5rfgodXScIog
And you confirmed that # matches 996. 105.041.72 in the INA Interchange list ?
http://www.new-part.com/product/bmw-...FQ5rfgodXScIog
02-16-2017, 10:24 AM
#12
MoeMoney, what Dahrn55 said is essentially what I did. I read his original post from years past and I also went with the BMW part number (11321748884) even used a micrometer to confirm size and long behold it is the same, the lifters I bought are even made by INA like the originals and parts are stamped with numbers just like the originals installed in the motor. A few miles later now and I continue to fire off all 6 cylinders nice and quietly since the refresh and also cut the cost of replacing the lifters. So thank you, Dharn55 for that great contribution and alternative to having to pay that "Porsche" tax.
Congrats MoeMoney on scoring one heck of a deal, it seems to be better than the one I got.
Congrats MoeMoney on scoring one heck of a deal, it seems to be better than the one I got.
02-16-2017, 11:53 AM
#13
Rennlist Member
02-17-2017, 03:20 PM
#15
Captain Obvious
Super User
Super User
When I was repairing my engine the first time, I had a set of old lifters from a '99 Jetta TDI and they slid perfectly into the lifter bores of the '99 996 head. I didn't investigate any further but might be worth to look up the specs as they sure looked the same to me.