Dharn55

The original INA lifters out of my car were bright and shiny and the replacement INA lifters I put in 8 yeras ago were also bright and shiny. Not sure what is up with that dark, dull finish but I don't think it has anything to do with heat treating. IMHO!

MoeMonney

After looking at the INA lifters that they have at the shop. They are shiny also. The markings are also different than the INA lifter picture uploaded. Im not an expert on car parts but the quality of the lifters I received seams to be identical to the INA lifters. I think it would be best to do a side to side comparison of a good lifter and a bad lifter.

There is also a different vendor on eBay selling INA brand lifters for $164 dollars for 24 but shipping takes much longer. I think price depends on where you buy them from.

Schnell Gelb

We spend a lot of time discussing lifters.But we seldom discuss the issue of wear in the bores of the Lifter Carrier.Since that wear (oval +/- taper) is related to Ticking(& worse!), it seems important.
The Lifter Carrier is aluminum, the lifter is steel. The two metals are separated by an oil film & good oil pressure. So if there is any problem with oil supply to the cams...... I wonder how many ticking M96 engines have Lifter Carrier bores that are hour-glass shaped & a few collapsed Lifters? Has anyone got any specs or measurements for bore wear and measurement techniques?
I found this. Guess the author before you click the link below?
"It is imperative when changing lifters to have the lifter carrier measured for taper and excess wear at the 6-12 O clock positions. Not doing this spells certain death to lifters at around 8K miles at the wear eff3etcs the lifter rotation during operation and increases wear dramatically. We've learned this the hard way during test work and even in one of our updated engines."
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...r-noise-2.html
Here is a different author example:
"Quick summary;

Engine failed at 136,000 miles due to a single lifter failure.

Full professional rebuild of engine including replacement of all 24 lifters with brand new lifters (and replaced all of the collateral damage).

Engine failed again within 500 miles of highway driving due to ... wait for it.... lifter failure.

Why? Lifter carrier was worn and excess tolerance was allowing the lifter to wobble ever so slightly. Slight wobble resulted in uneven stress causing failure.

Another full professional rebuild along with more collateral damaged parts replaced including another set of 24 brand new lifters but this time included two new lifter carriers.

Second time is the charm if you don't find the root cause of the failure on the first go around. Lesson learned. "
See Post #23 here"
http://986forum.com/forums/performan...-valves-2.html

________

Flat6 Innovations

This is why we have to bush lifter carriers in some cases to restore the proper running clearance.

Each lifter bore must be measured for the correct ID, and for both ovality, and taper.

If you buy a 5-10K engine, you can guaranteed that no micrometers were used in its assembly!

Schnell Gelb

Bushing a Lifter Carrier .... sounds expensive but it would be much better than an OEM new Lifter carrier.
In this regard the M96 is vaguely similar to the Jag/Ford Duratec engines.We had used something like this:
http://www.bhjproducts.com/bhj_conte...leeves/lbs.php

Schnell Gelb

I could find no authoritative info on how to evaluate used Lifters.
Many of online sources are contradictory . Just watch a few You Tube, BMW S54 Lifter vids for examples.Same/similar part to ours.
There is confusion about basic issues - for example:
1. should the tappet/piston(the part in the center of a Lifter) be hard or soft in a serviceable, used Lifter ?
2. if it is soft , how soft is too soft? Is the softness caused by air in the reservoir or just the spring bouncing in an almost oil-depleted Lifter?
3. if it is solid/hard - is it jammed(bad) or is it just completely full of un-compressible oil (good)?
4. should you prefill/load the lifters with oil and why ?
I got new Lifters from INA and measured the height of the dome of the tappet.There was significant variation. All were rock solid.
I measured the old lifters .Both the soft and hard ones had similar dimensional variation.
So which are worn out and which are not & how do you know?
The more I study the Lifter subject ,the more I realize I do not understand.But there is lots of confidently presented nonsense on the subject - some of it mine !
The only wisdom I have is to replace all the Lifters and their worn Carriers .Also ensure you have excellent oil pressure and no wear that will compromise the function of the Lifter -like worn camshaft bearings for example.
There is so much time involved in replacing M96 Lifters with the engine in the car, that to do otherwise may be fooli$h
Here is a related useful link:
"So, if they are solid - they need to be replaced IMHO."
*I now believe this may be partially wrong based on dismantling many old M96 lifters. Sometimes the tappet assembly is solid in the bucket because the tappet and the bucket is full of oil.
Proof = Dismantle all the Lifter parts,and carefully reassemble with no oil - the two halves of the tappet move freely. Install the tappet in the bucket WITHOUT the retaining ring - everything still moves freely. Install the retaining ring - ditto. Fill the tappet and the bucket with oil and reassemble completely - Rock Solid to finger pressure.
But remember ,the lifter will only stay "rock solid"to any degree if the engine oil pressure is sufficient.If the Lifter carrier bores or cam bearings are worn -not so much ? *
From here:
http://986forum.com/forums/performan...followers.html
And note that the new INA lifters you buy from SSF (for example ) are also labled for use on KIA & Porsche ! INA part # 420 0104 10= 99610504172
Included in the INA box are the most convoluted pictorial Instructions for pumping up the Lifters AFTER you install them. Since you will have spent many hours reassembling everything - you better pray it works ! No 'cooking' nor soaking required.Indeed some of the You Tube sources strongly advize against that. I am not saying it is wrong - just that among amateurs it is controversial.
See Post 68 here for more:
http://986forum.com/forums/performan...followers.html

Flat6 Innovations

....... and you may still have a problem with the new INA units. We have been plagued with bad lifters in 2017. If the engine cold starts with a misfire, you get to do the job all over again.

I am am currently no longer trusting INA lifters, and have to take the time to build a test jig for every single one.

AnthonyGS

I've never rebuilt a Porsche engine, but in every rebuild I've ever done lifters were one of the lowest cost components. Since they wear to a specific bore and cam love, you have to keep precise track of them. If changing cams or other valvetrain parts, this isn't a place to save money IMO. I've always been a new lifter guy and getting them from the OEM. IMO most aftermarket clutch bearings are complete poop too. I happily pay more for OEMs best here.

Flat6 Innovations

Genuine Porsche lifters are INA as well.

In an effort to curb the problems we'd been having we started buying Genuine...

Didn't work... Same problems. When you get bad ones, you get several bad ones out of the same set. They come packaged in multi- packs, and it seems that a whole pack, or most of that pack will be bad.... Then sometimes you get a flawless set.

None of these have failed once an engine was delivered, I catch them all here during my several days worth of evaluation, then we get to do the job all over again.... And then sometimes we get a second set of bad ones.

Wear is NOT the issue...(at least not THIS issue) Its the operation of the internal portion of the lifter. This leads to misfires when the engine is cold, and at fast idle in most instances.

INA will listen to nothing...

So, we are back to doing our own reconditioning of OE lifters until they get this figured out. This hit about 3 months ago and has been a huge pain in the *** for many of us in the industry. Some shops can;t even figure out what the issue is, and they waste days chasing gremlin issues with symptoms of injectors and ignition components. I know exactly how a bad lifter acts.

Schnell Gelb

On a Porsche?
Not only haven't you rebuilt an M96 but you obviously haven't had the sticker shock of pricing a Genuine Porsche branded Lifter.Until we identified generics that MIGHT work - the retail price was about $80 each.They have come down recently - to $66. Each !
https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...h/99610504172/
Now you may understand the significance of identifying and sharing here the info on an identical $10(in U.K.) lifter from the same OEM supplier to Porsche.
http://986forum.com/forums/performan...followers.html
And as the links also identify there is way more to this issue than just installing new lifters(regardless of price) - unfortunately.
Heck -on this Forum we don't even have a method of identifying a good/bad lifter before you install them !And the manufacturer is not helping any of us - not even one of their best customers.Shame on INA !!
Forget the price of the Lifters. I am doing this for the second time - both Banks -on a Boxster with the engine in place - it is a tedious and time consuming task - twice.New INA lifters both times and I have no idea which new INA lifters are good and which are junk.
"I got new Lifters from INA and measured the height of the dome of the tappet.There was significant variation."

AnthonyGS

I understand the points being made but just because two parts share dimensions and appearances, it doesn't make them like parts that are interchangeable. And seeing as a few automotive parts I've designed are in roads today, I might know a teeny tiny bit about the subject. I've sent parts off to be bid to get back same sized identical looking pieces of rubbish made of much weaker cheaper material.

Say your lifter is exactly the same save for internals. Well those internals control the amount of pressure that lifter can generate to open your valve spring. Doesn't make me eager to swap pieces just because they measure similarly and look the same.

now with proper research one might find out which factory they are manufactured in and prove they are the same. Until then it's speculation. This is the very reason manufacturer markings and chains of custody are important.

Schnell Gelb

You haven't read the Threads.
This has been beaten to death.The part number from INA is the same.INA supplies Porsche.It is all in the linked Threads
Just read the contribution from Smallblock aka Marcus, Gelbster and Schnell Gelb and Harn.

AnthonyGS

I read this thread. I didn't see any convincing evidence that the cheap generic is the same as the oem lifter. After saying the same thing in posts 4x and 44 yourself, I'm now somehow incorrect..... crazy.

And just because two lifters are stamped INI and measure and look the same, doesn't mean jack squat. I've sent parts to china to be built as samples and they comeback with incorrect copied manufacturer markings routinely! The Chinese will use crap machines, crap metallurgy, stick someone's else's part numbers and mfg markings on it and then sell it! I've seen it in person. Thats also one of the many reasons I no longer work for a fortune 100 auto maker.

Schnell Gelb

It is INA ,not INI.
INA is the OEM Lifter supplier to Porsche. I buy mine from SSF.
This source is INA's Tier 1 distributor in the USA.
The same faults are occurring in "Genuine Porsche" branded lifters as described in Posts above.
If you read the links (you obviously did not) I pointed out several times the potential flaws in my own initial analysis from years ago.
But I am sure your scatological comments are correct.But this is not the China Bashing Thread.
Now share your knowledge with us - how to evaluate INA Lifters ?.And specifically the tappets.

Schnell Gelb

To evaluate the these lifters I am experimenting with simple rig that others may find helpful.
Use a 12 pt., 1/4 drive 9mm(11/32") socket.Plus a 1/4" drive x hex extension. Fit in a drill press.Use a weight on the Press arm to apply a specific amount of pressure on a "solid"(but not jammed) Tappet in a Lifter for several minutes.Measure the Tappet height before/after.
First dismantle the lifter and clean(if necessary) leave the Retaining Ring off the tappet for the test just to make it easier to remove after the test is complete.
Any tappet that compresses more/much more quickly than the best of your sample is suspect.
Yes it is a crude ,comparative test but it is easy to replicate on many lifters if you are methodical.
To test the rig, select a 'soft ' Tappet.Dismantle, clean, refill both the tappet and bucket with oil.Reassemble. Omit the little spring wire Retaining Ring. It will probably be a leaker and compress too much ,too quickly. Measure the Tappet height before/after to confirm.The amount of oil dribbling out of the fill/weep hole is unimportant.The bucket is just that - a reservoir.
This is like measuring bores for ovality an taper. Lots of notes and markings and replications.
I hope this helps others propose a better test rig to evaluate suspect Lifters at the DIY level.