UOA found high copper, lead, iron, hear tapping sound
01-24-2017, 10:51 AM
#1
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UOA found high copper, lead, iron, hear tapping sound
I bought my 2002 996 C2 back in April. It has over 100k miles and needed a few minor things, but it's in good shape and drives well. I had the IMS, RMS, and clutch replaced. The IMS was replaced with the LN Single Row Pro Retrofit. Old bearing looked great. It was making a light tapping noise, especially when you first start it and at idle. The mechanic thought it was just the lifters sticking and not to worry too much. He did an oil change at the same time, either Mobil 1 or Motul.
So I did an oil change in November after 5000 miles. Switched to DT-40 and got the free UOA from RND Euro Parts. The engine has been quieter after the oil change, so I was hoping the lifters were the problem and the new oil unstuck them. There was a little metal on the drain plug and in the filter. It didn't look too bad and no plastic.
I got the results back from the UOA recently. It's showing high copper (54 ppm), lead (31 ppm), and iron (43 ppm). Everything else looks normal to me.
The engine has gotten louder again. It's making tapping noises, and it's worst when the engine is warm, under light load, 2k-3k RPM. Best description I can think of is that it sounds like a sewing machine. Sounds good at start up and idle now, and is quieter when cold. Sounds great at full throttle, through the rev range.
So I'm getting worried that this is the start of rod knock and I'm going to need to take apart the whole engine to replace the rod bearings. And once I do that, I should replace a lot of other parts, at some point, we are talking about a full rebuild.
Any tips to diagnose the issue and is it something I can repair without completely disassembling the engine? I plan to do whatever repair or rebuild myself.
So I did an oil change in November after 5000 miles. Switched to DT-40 and got the free UOA from RND Euro Parts. The engine has been quieter after the oil change, so I was hoping the lifters were the problem and the new oil unstuck them. There was a little metal on the drain plug and in the filter. It didn't look too bad and no plastic.
I got the results back from the UOA recently. It's showing high copper (54 ppm), lead (31 ppm), and iron (43 ppm). Everything else looks normal to me.
The engine has gotten louder again. It's making tapping noises, and it's worst when the engine is warm, under light load, 2k-3k RPM. Best description I can think of is that it sounds like a sewing machine. Sounds good at start up and idle now, and is quieter when cold. Sounds great at full throttle, through the rev range.
So I'm getting worried that this is the start of rod knock and I'm going to need to take apart the whole engine to replace the rod bearings. And once I do that, I should replace a lot of other parts, at some point, we are talking about a full rebuild.
Any tips to diagnose the issue and is it something I can repair without completely disassembling the engine? I plan to do whatever repair or rebuild myself.
01-24-2017, 12:29 PM
#3
here's a video of what oval cylinders and cylinder scoring on 4 & 6 sound like
https://youtu.be/YSRTKH89MdM
here's a pic of one of the scored cylinders:
hopefully yours sounds nothing like mine.
consuming any oil?
https://youtu.be/YSRTKH89MdM
here's a pic of one of the scored cylinders:
hopefully yours sounds nothing like mine.
consuming any oil?
01-24-2017, 12:36 PM
#4
Race Director
A distinct ticking noise is not good.
How many miles on the DT40 oil?
A long shot but I'm thinking the engine could quiet down with fresh oil. I have observed this many times after an oil change the engine with fresh oil is quieter under all operating conditions.
My only experience with an engine -- Dodge 318CI V8 -- making a ticking noise was to partially dissassemble the engine -- removed the carb, intake and exposed the valley between the cylinder heads -- and when I saw one or more cam bearings gone knew I was in for an engine rebuild. I pulled the engine and rebuilt it.
What you might consider is if you can assure yourself the noise is coming from the lifter area rather than the crank area to consider replacing some or all new (intake) lifters.
Frankly I really don't like offering the above. You could be throwing rather expensive new parts and expensive labor at the symptom only to have the new parts possibly suffer as the condition worsens and then you still have to tear into the engine.
Really, if the noise is deemed coming from inside the engine and with the based on your comments high bearing metal content in the oil you are I think faced with either continuing to operate the engine as it is until (?) or remove the engine and tear it down and get to the bottom of the problem.
How many miles on the DT40 oil?
A long shot but I'm thinking the engine could quiet down with fresh oil. I have observed this many times after an oil change the engine with fresh oil is quieter under all operating conditions.
My only experience with an engine -- Dodge 318CI V8 -- making a ticking noise was to partially dissassemble the engine -- removed the carb, intake and exposed the valley between the cylinder heads -- and when I saw one or more cam bearings gone knew I was in for an engine rebuild. I pulled the engine and rebuilt it.
What you might consider is if you can assure yourself the noise is coming from the lifter area rather than the crank area to consider replacing some or all new (intake) lifters.
Frankly I really don't like offering the above. You could be throwing rather expensive new parts and expensive labor at the symptom only to have the new parts possibly suffer as the condition worsens and then you still have to tear into the engine.
Really, if the noise is deemed coming from inside the engine and with the based on your comments high bearing metal content in the oil you are I think faced with either continuing to operate the engine as it is until (?) or remove the engine and tear it down and get to the bottom of the problem.
01-24-2017, 01:45 PM
#5
Drifting
Andrew,
Had a similar issue. I am not a tribologist nor a pro mechanic but I have sucessfuly modified & rebuilt an M96 that failed due to worn bearings....
The value of your UOA is the slightly(?)high level of bearing wear metals identified. Until you can prove otherwise ,the best evidence(noise+UOA) indicates bearing wear.Main bearing #6 in my case.
But first you may need a new Indie?
The hints are "my mechanic thought---lifters" ! - a few minutes with an Engine Ear would have converted his thought into something closer to a diagnosis. A more contentious mechanic may be a good idea? If you have been blithely running an engine with bearing wear when you were told it was lifters....Have you priced an M96 crankshaft ?
Another piece of evidence is the choice of IMSB .I hope you mis-named it. The better choice (if you had asked here) would have been the 2nd Gen Single Row Pro -which is actually a staggered double row bearing that fits single row engines like yours and mine.
So , find a competent M96 expert(ask here) take it to him to diagnose. Drive it very gently a short distance - assuming the bearing clatter(?) is not loud and you are feeling lucky
I wish you luck .Let us know. We can help with the repair/ rebuild/used engine alternatives.Maybe it is just lifters- I hope.
Had a similar issue. I am not a tribologist nor a pro mechanic but I have sucessfuly modified & rebuilt an M96 that failed due to worn bearings....
The value of your UOA is the slightly(?)high level of bearing wear metals identified. Until you can prove otherwise ,the best evidence(noise+UOA) indicates bearing wear.Main bearing #6 in my case.
But first you may need a new Indie?
The hints are "my mechanic thought---lifters" ! - a few minutes with an Engine Ear would have converted his thought into something closer to a diagnosis. A more contentious mechanic may be a good idea? If you have been blithely running an engine with bearing wear when you were told it was lifters....Have you priced an M96 crankshaft ?
Another piece of evidence is the choice of IMSB .I hope you mis-named it. The better choice (if you had asked here) would have been the 2nd Gen Single Row Pro -which is actually a staggered double row bearing that fits single row engines like yours and mine.
So , find a competent M96 expert(ask here) take it to him to diagnose. Drive it very gently a short distance - assuming the bearing clatter(?) is not loud and you are feeling lucky
I wish you luck .Let us know. We can help with the repair/ rebuild/used engine alternatives.Maybe it is just lifters- I hope.
01-24-2017, 02:24 PM
#6
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here's a video of what oval cylinders and cylinder scoring on 4 & 6 sound like
https://youtu.be/YSRTKH89MdM
hopefully yours sounds nothing like mine.
consuming any oil?
https://youtu.be/YSRTKH89MdM
hopefully yours sounds nothing like mine.
consuming any oil?
It's not consuming any oil.
A distinct ticking noise is not good.
How many miles on the DT40 oil?
A long shot but I'm thinking the engine could quiet down with fresh oil. I have observed this many times after an oil change the engine with fresh oil is quieter under all operating conditions.
My only experience with an engine -- Dodge 318CI V8 -- making a ticking noise was to partially dissassemble the engine -- removed the carb, intake and exposed the valley between the cylinder heads -- and when I saw one or more cam bearings gone knew I was in for an engine rebuild. I pulled the engine and rebuilt it.
What you might consider is if you can assure yourself the noise is coming from the lifter area rather than the crank area to consider replacing some or all new (intake) lifters.
Frankly I really don't like offering the above. You could be throwing rather expensive new parts and expensive labor at the symptom only to have the new parts possibly suffer as the condition worsens and then you still have to tear into the engine.
Really, if the noise is deemed coming from inside the engine and with the based on your comments high bearing metal content in the oil you are I think faced with either continuing to operate the engine as it is until (?) or remove the engine and tear it down and get to the bottom of the problem.
How many miles on the DT40 oil?
A long shot but I'm thinking the engine could quiet down with fresh oil. I have observed this many times after an oil change the engine with fresh oil is quieter under all operating conditions.
My only experience with an engine -- Dodge 318CI V8 -- making a ticking noise was to partially dissassemble the engine -- removed the carb, intake and exposed the valley between the cylinder heads -- and when I saw one or more cam bearings gone knew I was in for an engine rebuild. I pulled the engine and rebuilt it.
What you might consider is if you can assure yourself the noise is coming from the lifter area rather than the crank area to consider replacing some or all new (intake) lifters.
Frankly I really don't like offering the above. You could be throwing rather expensive new parts and expensive labor at the symptom only to have the new parts possibly suffer as the condition worsens and then you still have to tear into the engine.
Really, if the noise is deemed coming from inside the engine and with the based on your comments high bearing metal content in the oil you are I think faced with either continuing to operate the engine as it is until (?) or remove the engine and tear it down and get to the bottom of the problem.
Andrew,
Had a similar issue. I am not a tribologist nor a pro mechanic but I have sucessfuly modified & rebuilt an M96 that failed due to worn bearings....
The value of your UOA is the slightly(?)high level of bearing wear metals identified. Until you can prove otherwise ,the best evidence(noise+UOA) indicates bearing wear.Main bearing #6 in my case.
But first you may need a new Indie?
The hints are "my mechanic thought---lifters" ! - a few minutes with an Engine Ear would have converted his thought into something closer to a diagnosis. A more contentious mechanic may be a good idea? If you have been blithely running an engine with bearing wear when you were told it was lifters....Have you priced an M96 crankshaft ?
Another piece of evidence is the choice of IMSB .I hope you mis-named it. The better choice (if you had asked here) would have been the 2nd Gen Single Row Pro -which is actually a staggered double row bearing that fits single row engines like yours and mine.
So , find a competent M96 expert(ask here) take it to him to diagnose. Drive it very gently a short distance - assuming the bearing clatter(?) is not loud and you are feeling lucky
I wish you luck .Let us know. We can help with the repair/ rebuild/used engine alternatives.Maybe it is just lifters- I hope.
Had a similar issue. I am not a tribologist nor a pro mechanic but I have sucessfuly modified & rebuilt an M96 that failed due to worn bearings....
The value of your UOA is the slightly(?)high level of bearing wear metals identified. Until you can prove otherwise ,the best evidence(noise+UOA) indicates bearing wear.Main bearing #6 in my case.
But first you may need a new Indie?
The hints are "my mechanic thought---lifters" ! - a few minutes with an Engine Ear would have converted his thought into something closer to a diagnosis. A more contentious mechanic may be a good idea? If you have been blithely running an engine with bearing wear when you were told it was lifters....Have you priced an M96 crankshaft ?
Another piece of evidence is the choice of IMSB .I hope you mis-named it. The better choice (if you had asked here) would have been the 2nd Gen Single Row Pro -which is actually a staggered double row bearing that fits single row engines like yours and mine.
So , find a competent M96 expert(ask here) take it to him to diagnose. Drive it very gently a short distance - assuming the bearing clatter(?) is not loud and you are feeling lucky
I wish you luck .Let us know. We can help with the repair/ rebuild/used engine alternatives.Maybe it is just lifters- I hope.
I don't think it's worth just changing lifters at this point. I'm concerned that the UOA shows there is something wrong, even if the lifters are making the noise. Stuck lifters don't put metal in the oil.
It could be worth taking it to a shop to diagnose. No great shops are close though, and I'm sure I'm not willing to pay their labor rate to fix it, especially if it's a lot of work. So I would prefer to find the problem myself if I can.
01-24-2017, 02:53 PM
#7
Drifting
"I don't think it's worth just changing lifters at this point. I'm concerned that the UOA shows there is something wrong, even if the lifters are making the noise. Stuck lifters don't put metal in the oil."
Don't think. Use an Engine Ear to diagnose the lifters.Hopefully a few minutes with that correct diagnostic tool will clarify for you.
I had lifters+bearing. Not unusual to have both. Eventually the stuck(noisy) lifters will damage the camshaft lobes- and put the debris in the oil.And it is fine debris that plugs the tiny orifice in the (later upgraded) INA lifters.
The DIY approach is great(self-serving comment by me!) but I couldn't do it without a lot of extra equipment,tools and knowledge. Budget at least $7-$10k for all the parts.machining,tools and equipment. Some of the knowledge is scattered all over the Internet.There is no single source on how to rebuild an M96 -except Raby school.
Otherwise buy a good used engine.The good used 3.2 S engines are expensive !
IMHO the labor rate of a competent ,honest M96 indie is a bargain. I work with an Indie(not Porsche)am Mech.Eng and have rebuilt other engines but I was humbled by the task of rebuilding this engine.None of my guys could do it(in my opinion). They do the best work in Los Angeles on Astons.Range Rovers and similar but this engine is different... One issue is the lack of info,data,specs., the other is the precision standards ,techniques and tools required and the quirks/technology in this engine.These are the ultimate obstacles .
Sure it can be slapped together and work -for a while.This issue will become more of a problem as the price of M96 cars declines to Miata levels. As others here have said - "the buy in price may be low but the stay in price can be exorbitant" Quite the opposite for a Miata.
Don't think. Use an Engine Ear to diagnose the lifters.Hopefully a few minutes with that correct diagnostic tool will clarify for you.
I had lifters+bearing. Not unusual to have both. Eventually the stuck(noisy) lifters will damage the camshaft lobes- and put the debris in the oil.And it is fine debris that plugs the tiny orifice in the (later upgraded) INA lifters.
The DIY approach is great(self-serving comment by me!) but I couldn't do it without a lot of extra equipment,tools and knowledge. Budget at least $7-$10k for all the parts.machining,tools and equipment. Some of the knowledge is scattered all over the Internet.There is no single source on how to rebuild an M96 -except Raby school.
Otherwise buy a good used engine.The good used 3.2 S engines are expensive !
IMHO the labor rate of a competent ,honest M96 indie is a bargain. I work with an Indie(not Porsche)am Mech.Eng and have rebuilt other engines but I was humbled by the task of rebuilding this engine.None of my guys could do it(in my opinion). They do the best work in Los Angeles on Astons.Range Rovers and similar but this engine is different... One issue is the lack of info,data,specs., the other is the precision standards ,techniques and tools required and the quirks/technology in this engine.These are the ultimate obstacles .
Sure it can be slapped together and work -for a while.This issue will become more of a problem as the price of M96 cars declines to Miata levels. As others here have said - "the buy in price may be low but the stay in price can be exorbitant" Quite the opposite for a Miata.
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01-24-2017, 02:57 PM
#8
I had my timing chain break and the motor went kaput. I wish that i was told to stop driving it when it was at the shop instead of telling me to use a different oil.
I would suggest to not drive it any longer and have it looked at.
I would suggest to not drive it any longer and have it looked at.
01-24-2017, 02:57 PM
#9
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I have started taking a look at rebuilding the engine. So far, I have figured out that just to take the engine apart and reassemble it, there is a lot of parts cost. Lots of special gaskets and stretch bolts that have to be replaced. Assuming I replaced the bare minimum parts I could, it would likely still be more than $3k. About $5k would possibly be realistic replacing some common wear parts. Easily $12k or more to do nickies and everything I would want.
Of those of you that have rebuilt a M96, if you have a parts list spreadsheet you could share, I would really appreciate it.
I want to have a realistic budget for various scenarios I might find, if I'm going to start disassembling everything. I would also like to wait for Jake to release his M96 Engine Assembly book, but it's hard to park the car now and wait for the book.
The RND rebuilt engines sound really nice, but they are more expensive than the car was. I can't really justify that, when I could just buy another car.
If I keep driving it and it fails catastrophically, I could get a used engine or one from MB motorsports. That would be more like $12k, but it wouldn't be as good as if I rebuilt it myself the way I wanted. Which I can't do if the motor is trashed.
I'm also considering an LS V8 swap. Certainly, if the motor blows up, this would be a better option for me. Starting with an aluminum truck engine, I could swap it myself and have 400-500 hp for around the same $12k cost. The wiring and hoses would be a PITA, but I know I could get it to fit and run.
Anyway, my dilemma is, can I really diagnose it without starting to disassemble it? Should I park it until I'm ready to rebuild the engine, if that is ultimately what I have to do? Or should I just keep driving it and hope it will last a few more years? If I drove it five more years before it blew and I sold the roller, I'd be happy overall, but not some much if it blew in 5 weeks.
Of those of you that have rebuilt a M96, if you have a parts list spreadsheet you could share, I would really appreciate it.
I want to have a realistic budget for various scenarios I might find, if I'm going to start disassembling everything. I would also like to wait for Jake to release his M96 Engine Assembly book, but it's hard to park the car now and wait for the book.
The RND rebuilt engines sound really nice, but they are more expensive than the car was. I can't really justify that, when I could just buy another car.
If I keep driving it and it fails catastrophically, I could get a used engine or one from MB motorsports. That would be more like $12k, but it wouldn't be as good as if I rebuilt it myself the way I wanted. Which I can't do if the motor is trashed.
I'm also considering an LS V8 swap. Certainly, if the motor blows up, this would be a better option for me. Starting with an aluminum truck engine, I could swap it myself and have 400-500 hp for around the same $12k cost. The wiring and hoses would be a PITA, but I know I could get it to fit and run.
Anyway, my dilemma is, can I really diagnose it without starting to disassemble it? Should I park it until I'm ready to rebuild the engine, if that is ultimately what I have to do? Or should I just keep driving it and hope it will last a few more years? If I drove it five more years before it blew and I sold the roller, I'd be happy overall, but not some much if it blew in 5 weeks.
01-24-2017, 03:11 PM
#10
My tapping came and went for a couple months. I was just driving 70mph one day and the chain let loose. There were times that there wasn't any tapping. i originally thought it was lifters, but i guess i was wrong.
My 02 cab roller with 107k in good shape went for 8k.
My 02 cab roller with 107k in good shape went for 8k.
01-24-2017, 03:15 PM
#11
Rennlist Member
LS swap is going to cost way more then you think...I'd look for a good used motor and swap. Then you could slowly rebuild your old motor to your specs and sell one of the two later.
01-24-2017, 03:50 PM
#13
yup, to do it properly, I was looking at the same price of LNE nickies and rebuilding the Flat6.
01-24-2017, 04:47 PM
#14
If the harness and what not is the same from the 3.4; you should look at this motor:
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...3-4-motor.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...3-4-motor.html
01-24-2017, 05:03 PM
#15
-bearing case/crankshaft bearings
-rod bearings
-timing chains
-timing chain paddles/guides
-LNE IMS billet IMS paddle
-LNE oil pump Hex Drive
-Gasket kit (you replace all of them)
-head gaskets
-camshaft hole covers
-new rod bolts
-new head bolts
-new bearing carrier case bolts
-new engine case bolts
-water pump bolts
-new valve cover bolts
-new flywheel bolts
-new head bolts
-you will need a new LNE IMS bearing - can't reuse your old/new one once it is removed
-new piston rings
-LNE thermostat (not required)
-new internal AOS (not required)
-new pick up tube (not required)
that's off the top of my head and was for my build (also got the nickies ) I am sure I'm missing stuff. and that was for the short block only.
-rod bearings
-timing chains
-timing chain paddles/guides
-LNE IMS billet IMS paddle
-LNE oil pump Hex Drive
-Gasket kit (you replace all of them)
-head gaskets
-camshaft hole covers
-new rod bolts
-new head bolts
-new bearing carrier case bolts
-new engine case bolts
-water pump bolts
-new valve cover bolts
-new flywheel bolts
-new head bolts
-you will need a new LNE IMS bearing - can't reuse your old/new one once it is removed
-new piston rings
-LNE thermostat (not required)
-new internal AOS (not required)
-new pick up tube (not required)
that's off the top of my head and was for my build (also got the nickies ) I am sure I'm missing stuff. and that was for the short block only.
