Gambled and Lost
10-14-2013, 11:29 PM
#106
Former Vendor
10-15-2013, 12:14 PM
#107
Former Vendor
The engine was pulled apart today. After inspection of every single chain roller we finally found where the debris was generated from. Its conclusive, the chain was failing.
As I had stated earlier, would probably occur we also found a scavenge pump that has "consumed" the offending piece of debris and ran it through the super tight internal clearances, thus creating secondary collateral damage. This usually leads to a failed pump that will break and created tertiary damages that lead to further failure, to include retarded exhaust valve timing on that particular bank of cylinders. Luckily this did not occur and the piece of debris only was delivered back to the oil sump, where we found it during our pre-qualification process for the IMS Solution.
The damage didn't end there, the rod bearings were heavily worn and appear to have been the victim of detonation. Most all were worn through their dermis level of materials and a few were worn all the way into the copper layer.
We fully documented the teardown and I will share pics later. Funny thing is, I didn't have any Rennlist Volunteers agree to come spend their time along side us while we took it apart. Kind of disappointing.
Pictures posted to facebook later today. Nothing feels better than saving an engine from mass catastrophe based on experience and a few clues.
As I had stated earlier, would probably occur we also found a scavenge pump that has "consumed" the offending piece of debris and ran it through the super tight internal clearances, thus creating secondary collateral damage. This usually leads to a failed pump that will break and created tertiary damages that lead to further failure, to include retarded exhaust valve timing on that particular bank of cylinders. Luckily this did not occur and the piece of debris only was delivered back to the oil sump, where we found it during our pre-qualification process for the IMS Solution.
The damage didn't end there, the rod bearings were heavily worn and appear to have been the victim of detonation. Most all were worn through their dermis level of materials and a few were worn all the way into the copper layer.
We fully documented the teardown and I will share pics later. Funny thing is, I didn't have any Rennlist Volunteers agree to come spend their time along side us while we took it apart. Kind of disappointing.
Pictures posted to facebook later today. Nothing feels better than saving an engine from mass catastrophe based on experience and a few clues.
10-15-2013, 01:24 PM
#108
Former Vendor
Yep. "Gambled and won".
This is far from a "loss".
Here's the secondary, collateral damage the piece of timing chain created when it passed through the scavenge pump
And here's the rod bearing.. It was just worn..
And here's a whole bank of worn rod bearings, the knock sensors will also be replaced, because they obviously weren't effective.
And the anti-wear coating of this piston is also compromised, this would have led to a failed cylinder in the future
And that piston had some companions, incidentally they were the same pistons that had the worn rod bearings. Detonation anyone?
This is far from a "loss".
Here's the secondary, collateral damage the piece of timing chain created when it passed through the scavenge pump
And here's the rod bearing.. It was just worn..
And here's a whole bank of worn rod bearings, the knock sensors will also be replaced, because they obviously weren't effective.
And the anti-wear coating of this piston is also compromised, this would have led to a failed cylinder in the future
And that piston had some companions, incidentally they were the same pistons that had the worn rod bearings. Detonation anyone?
10-15-2013, 02:15 PM
#110
Former Vendor
What leads to most of these issues is poor boundary layer protection and too long of service interval.
Note that the other rollers in that vicinity are also starting to wear. This leads me to believe that the heat treat on this chain wasn't proper, and a lot of variables lead to this.
Few failures have a single contributing factor.
10-15-2013, 03:10 PM
#111
Racer
No detonation would only create the rod bearing wear. This engine had compound issues, all of them with no symptoms.
What leads to most of these issues is poor boundary layer protection and too long of service interval.
Note that the other rollers in that vicinity are also starting to wear. This leads me to believe that the heat treat on this chain wasn't proper, and a lot of variables lead to this.
Few failures have a single contributing factor.
What leads to most of these issues is poor boundary layer protection and too long of service interval.
Note that the other rollers in that vicinity are also starting to wear. This leads me to believe that the heat treat on this chain wasn't proper, and a lot of variables lead to this.
Few failures have a single contributing factor.
By '... too long of service interval', do you just mean oil replacement intervals or do you mean more ...?
Martin
10-15-2013, 04:37 PM
#112
Three Wheelin'
But, lucky for you, the world is littered with the insane
10-15-2013, 05:10 PM
#113
Former Vendor
10-15-2013, 05:21 PM
#114
Thanks for the informative pictures and explanation. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but were you saying you thought the detonation was due to a breakdown of the oil (i.e. poor boundary layer protection)? I've never heard of poor lubrication being a source of detonation, short of cylinder wall damage acting as an ignition source. Can you explain how the two are linked? Thanks,
Shawn
Shawn
10-15-2013, 05:29 PM
#115
Former Vendor
Poor film strength will allow the oil to shear more easily. Detonation will "squeeze" the oil from the journal and allow metal/ metal contact and wear the rod bearings. Detonation is equal to hitting these rod bearings with a 10 pound hammer thousands of times per minute.
10-15-2013, 05:44 PM
#117
Former Vendor
10-15-2013, 05:45 PM
#118
Okay, thanks. So you weren't saying detonation was due to film strength, you were saying the poor film strength allowed the damage to the bearings to occur. Any idea why he/she had detonation to start with?
-Nevermind, you answered my question above.
-Nevermind, you answered my question above.
10-15-2013, 05:50 PM
#119
Racer
Thread Starter
Given the amount of internal, and not visible to me, damage - I am extremely glad that I selected Jake's IMS solution, as opposed to just swapping out the IMS bearing myself, or using a different shop. It could have really cost me, had Jake not caught it!
The fly in the ointment is I have only owned the car for a month and put about 2k miles on it. : (
The fly in the ointment is I have only owned the car for a month and put about 2k miles on it. : (
10-15-2013, 08:32 PM
#120
No detonation would only create the rod bearing wear. This engine had compound issues, all of them with no symptoms.
What leads to most of these issues is poor boundary layer protection and too long of service interval.
Note that the other rollers in that vicinity are also starting to wear. This leads me to believe that the heat treat on this chain wasn't proper, and a lot of variables lead to this.
Few failures have a single contributing factor.
What leads to most of these issues is poor boundary layer protection and too long of service interval.
Note that the other rollers in that vicinity are also starting to wear. This leads me to believe that the heat treat on this chain wasn't proper, and a lot of variables lead to this.
Few failures have a single contributing factor.