jrrhdmust

So I bought my first 911 a 2002 996 RWD with 65k on the odometer about a month ago. I am aware of the IMS issues, and promptly got an appointment with Raby's Flat Six Innovations for his solution.

While pulling apart the motor he found bits of the timing chain in the oil sump. Fortunately it did not destroy my engine. Unfortunately, there is not a good way to fix it with out a motor rebuild....

5CHN3LL

Well, that sucks. On the plus side, if you go through with the Raby build, you'll have a solid motor and you'll have done one of the few things (at least in the eyes of people who know anything about 996s) that can actually help the resale value.

McCrazy

What are the details of your 996 as far as color, etc? I ask because I traded in a 2002 996 with 65,000 miles on it at the end of July in Tennessee. Can't help but wonder if you got my old car.

CJWessing

Did you have a PPI inspection done before buying the car? I suppose they wouldn't be able to detect something like this? Now you have me worried about my 2002 Targa I bought in May with 80k miles on it... I swear this forum is causing more harm than good... =)

Barn996

Ouch!

alpine003

Sorry to hear that but you mean he found timing guide bits or actual parts of the timing chain?

morganabowen

BUMMER

silotwo

The information can be helpful; worrying never changes any outcome.

We stopped going to a cancer survivor's support group because every time a "survivor" was no longer with us it would set my wife to worrying that she'd be next. The truth is that only people with cancer or their caregivers attended the group, so really, what kind of news would we expect to be typical?

Forums are biased and here we have many more posts about "help" or "I think this is broken" and "I think this might break".

One thing that helps me avoid anxiety over 996 ownership is to drive them. Took the C4S for a drive to nowhere for a couple of hours today, what a pleasure. I also hold the unsubstantiated belief that the best way to avoid many problems with these cars is to drive them. I have had very few issues with my C2 and until the C4S arrived the C2 was driven every single day.

Enjoy your red beauty!

Imo000

I'm interested in this too. Also, even if the engine has to come apart, why can't the problem be fixed instead of a full rebuild? No one wants to fix these engines anymore because there is more money in a rebuild?

philooo

We all love Jake Raby but take his word with caution

He ALWAYS suggest a rebuild, that is what he sells. Why would he take the risk of telling you, you are fine run with it when he can pocket $10k and the customer thank him at the same time...

I had piece of timing chain GUIDE in my oil pan like everybody else and he told me based on pictures that a rebuild was needed. I have been driving my car for two year including track days and it runs like a clock

Rabby suggest this to every worry wart out there.

Don't let the IMS madness cloud your judgment, or be swayed by people who feed on it.

considering the price of rebuild just drive it, if it blows up, the rebuild will cost always the same. could be worst but with the cost of these cars, preventive $10k maintenance are not worth it.

Confirm exactly what he found ... metal piece, plastic ?

Hurdigurdiman

Philooo I am in your corner on that statement. Jake the vulture is hovering over the 996 pages waiting to dive down and clean up the mess. IMS means IN MY Sky rocket (cockney slang for pocket) to Jake haha. He must pay someone to watch these pages for IMS and he swoops. His eyes must go like slot machines spinners with the dollar sign on each. haha. BTW Not everyone loves Jake Raby.. or even likes him for that matter.


JRRHDMUST./....I wouldn't believe any mechanic who said that they found crap in my oil pan UNLESS I was standing there watching them drop the pan. I bet you were at home watching your television as he dropped the pan. Maybe he found the crap it on his bench. haha. If you weren't scared about the IMS before, I bet you are since you took your car to Jake. Quite honestly you must have more money than sense. BTW that's only IMHO.

chsu74

I don't think you would be able to drive the car to any shop with bits of the timing chain floating around in an engine. These engines are not double chained so it would have crapped out as soon as a chain comes apart.

Zanzibar Red 996

I contacted Jake about a IMS
Solution on a 2001 c2 with
28,000 mile and no issues
He suggested a rebuild was the only thing he would Warantee , I inquired about
A mechanic in Florida who may be able to install his
"The Solution "
Mr Raby told me only mechanics who had attended
His invitation only seminar ,
Could do this job and in his opinion , No Mechanic in the Satate of Florida qualified
To attend snd he gave me a long version of why Florida
Porsche Mechanics were do ill informed .
Really in the state that hosts
Daytona 24hr and Sebring 12hr not to mention the famous Brumos Porsche Team. ???

alpine003

I'm not here to defend Jake by any means and those of you that's been around know my history.

To be fair though, jake does have a sterling rep to uphold and this is one of the safest and guaranteed ways to accomplish and sustain his track record. He's seen several modes of failure that not everyone knows about which "could" contribute or lead to a failure, which could theoretically be tied into worn timing guides.

The way I see it, he's damn if he does and damn if he doesn't. Imagine if he just replaced the timing guides and cleaned up the sump and pan and considered it "fixed". If the engine were to fail later, the owner could basically post all over the Internet on how jake does crappy work. Sort of a catch 22 IMO.

I know Jake will never do half a$$ work or anything questionable so if you're willing to take a chance on just replacing the timing guides, you're probably better off taking it elsewhere IMO. If you're lucky, that fix could last you the lifetime of the car. Who knows?

Flat6 Innovations

Lots of people in Florida could install an IMS Solution, any professional shop can buy the components from SS Auto Parts. The fact that no shops in Florida have become Certified Installers of the IMS Solution is just that- fact. Shops attend our classes through WTI, or my engine rebuild school here and those who impress us are invited to begin the Certified Installer process, which requires an evaluation. Sorry, but I won't put my reputation and the reputation of my products in the hands of just anyone with a tool box. I don't care who they are, what they have done, or what their name is- until they pass my evaluation they don't get the Certified Installer status.

That said, here is what we found in the oil sump of the engine the original poster spoke about. This is clearly a piece of a timing chain roller. How do we know? Well, we've only seen it on 33 documented occasions thus far.


The piece of chain we found is much like this one: (the only difference is this piece made it through a scavenge pump where it was flattened, but not before it locked that scavenge pump, broke the exhaust camshaft drive and resulted in 6 bent exhaust valves on bank 1 of the engine)


That came from this chain that we also caught minutes before it snapped in half:


And here is the collateral damage that occurred from this one:



Now, these are two more jobs that came in last week, and the week prior that we were not able to catch in time. Each of them had extensive collateral damage stemming from the loss of valve timing.
This one came to us from Florida.. It was repaired in less that two weeks and was just dyno tested today, it will ship home next week.


And this one was actually local to us.


Now, before the opposition gets their panties in a wad, hear this:
1- This engine is NOT going to be rebuilt! We do not rebuild engines, our engine reconstruction program is pretty far removed from a "rebuild".

2- The original poster's engine will simply be disassembled and repaired, at our level of proficiency this is a straight forward process that can be done in a timely manner at less than 1/2 cost of my reconstructed engine. We repair engines that are condemned by dealers and other shops routinely.

3-This is a fairly low mileage engine, it does not need more than the timing chains replaced; but while we are there we will update all the rod and main bearings as well as welding and pinning the IMS assembly, replacing all chain guides and replacing the intake valve seats which we KNOW are a problem with this model year engine. we will also fully freshen up the heads with new valve springs, 3 angle valve job and a CBM surface finish.

4- I DID NOT TRY TO UPSELL THE ORIGINAL POSTER ON THIS SERVICE!!!!

5- I told him that we found the foreign object debris in the oil sump, halted the processes and put the engine back together so he could come pick the car up. He wasn't going to owe us a dime, and IF he decides not to move forward he can come grab the car Monday and he still won't owe us a dime.

6- If a PROPER and EXHAUSTIVE PPI had been done on this car this piece of material would have been found. Now, chances are that the PPI inspector would not have a clue as to what that piece of material actually is, because they don't see broken engines everyday, but they would have found it.

7- These are the things that I preach in my classes that a poster above mentioned and these are the things that I want to pound into the heads of any Certified Installer of my product. I tell each and every person I interface with professionally with these engines to pull the sump plate, because it is the window into the soul of the engine- period. The sump plate holds many truths about whats inside the engine, because debris must pass through a screen and through the engine oil pump to make it into the oil filter! The sump attracts debris, just like any "oil pan" on any engine that has even been built.

8- Actually I NEVER suggest a rebuild, because thats not what we do- my reconstructed engine starts at 20K and its not for everyone when the price of these cars have plummeted so badly. Most reconstructions that we do are WANTED by their owners and they sell the practice to themselves. For an issue like the original poster has I would not recommend a reconstruction, because he doesn't need it. If I had to guess, he probably wants to see his car before July of 2014, which is when he would receive it if it were to become a part of my reconstruction program and got in today.

9- This year we will see 6-8 times the amount of preventive measure vehicles and extensive engine repairs over what we will see for engine reconstructions. These reconstruction jobs are secondary to my R&D practices and we only create 24 engines per year. Each of these are prepared, machined, balanced, assembled and installed by the same pair of hands and the same mind. I have not created a mass production engine rebuild facility- if I did we'd be just like everyone else.

10-Don't challenge my integrity, your statement is not warranted and completely unsubstantiated. The statement is also accusatory and just plain abrasive. Have I ripped you off? have you read about me ripping anyone else off? If so, where is the link? Are you just another vendor hater that can't see the fact that if we hadn't created our components and procedures that many of you here on these forums would have your cars populating the junkyard with no possibility for retrofitting an IMSB? When we extracted the first bearings, dealerships didn't believe it and for two years they were still telling people that the IMSB could not be serviced!

All of that said, we have done our job. We qualify each and every engine to receive our products, else we will not carry out the processes. We've packed up 7 cars so far this year and shipped them home after we found another of the 24 modes of documented failure imminent within the engine. Any of those engines, or the one in question here could have failed after our procedures and we would have been engaged in a finger pointing exercise. When this happens it impacts our reputation and also kills the credibility of the products that we invent, develop and just happen to install as well. When we have an issue its much different than some local job shop that buys parts and installs them, because these are our parts in every way, they are installed with the tools and processes that we have developed as well.

If this engine had been retrofitted by a typical shop that does not deal with engine death daily they would not have pulled the sump and would not have found this. Like others in this thread they would say "the car drove here just fine, so it must not have anything wrong with it". Well, they would have retrofitted this engine and it would have failed and they'd probably end up in a lawsuit, and honestly they should, because they are not proficient enough to be working at this level.

Here we are very proficient with these engines. We see failures every day and we see them from all across North America and the World. I am so confident in our initial hypothesis concerning this form of imminent failure that I will carry out all the work to the original poster's engine for free if we pull this engine apart and do not find the failing timing chain.

This is not an exaggeration, and I invite a verifier from these forums to come here and sit with my technician while the engine is coming apart. He can go home when we find the bad timing chain roller.

I have done this before, and if we are wrong, my loss will be his gain, and we'll also learn a lesson. Thus far when doing this I haven't ever been wrong, even when a UOA pointed out that an engine had worn rod bearings and it didn't have any symptoms.

So, one of you naysayers accept the challenge and come live in my world for 6 hours while this engine comes apart. If not, I'd stop making accusatory statements that me and my company are ripping off this Porsche owner. If you decide to come verify, I hope that you have thick skin; because you'll need it. You'll see 22 broken engines all apart from primary failures and you'll probably leave with a different point of view about what we do and what the M96 really is.

We always qualify vehicles for preventive measures and we document the entire process, whether it is simple and straight forward, or if its dramatic like this one. This qualification process is how we have installed 300 documented, registered IMS Retrofit procedures and haven't had a single failure of an engine afterward. What we do might not suit those of you here on these forums, but it works, we are effective, we are on top and we do not fail. Last time I checked, this wasn't a popularity contest and I am only graded on my performance-

The topic of this tread should be changed to: "Gambled and got lucky", because the original poster could be facing 2X the repair bill if this was not found. If I were him I'd go buy a lottery ticket. I'd do it right now.


It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.
Teddy Roosevelt