It's official, my engine is BLOWN.
05-06-2008, 12:04 PM
#121
Drifting
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Some on this board (usually those that have experienced a problem) run around in all of these threads basically proclaiming the world is on fire and every 996 destined to fail. They act all the while as if since it happened to them it will happend to everyone else. I would never ask these individuals not to talk about it, only keep in mind that even though the failure rate for you is 100%, for others it is 0%. (I have two M96's that have been on the road for a combined 13 years that have not failed)
Furthermore, keep in mind that many of these motors that are termed "blown" on this and other boards did not really blow rather they had a repairable part fail. Also, consider that (as Adrian Streather describes in his new book) some "failures" may be caused by owners that do not properly maintain their cars.
IMO, Porsche is partly at fault for creating this perception with the design of their current "core exchange" program. For example if a 964 engine has a part fail, the engine is generally torn down and rebuilt. Did the motor "blow"? Depending on the problem probably not, but it might have been described that way if Porsche chose to exchange those motors. (Just imagine if every 993 motor with an SAI issue was "exchanged" and termed a "blown" motor.)
There is nothing about a 996 engine that keeps it from being rebuilt. Porsche and/or aftermarket suppliers could provide parts and the 996 engine could be repaired like any other 911 powerplant (they are beginning to do this now). I suspect that as these cars age (and more parts become available) you will see more people simply repair their motors rather than opt for a core exchange.
I think the program works well for now. The engines are not disposable. They are rebuilt, (only by Porsche rather than by the dealer or a local shop). This benefits both the customer and Porsche. Porsche gets $$ that would have gone to a local shop and the customer gets a basically new motor and a full warranty. Furthermore Porsche can study engines from the field to discover how they are wearing and make improvements. They can also control the quality of any rebuilt motor.
I believe that Porsche probably did have far too many "failures" on early 986's and 996's. However they have worked on the problems over time and fewer of the later motors seem to fail. (i.e. the M96/01 < M96/02 < M96/03 and so on). Consider that the engines in the 997 are basically the same as the 996, but seem to be more trouble free.
Hmmm, how very Porsche like to introduce a new product that turns out to be imperfect and rather than scrap it improve it slowly over time. Seems to me that Porsche is "the same as it ever was".
Furthermore, keep in mind that many of these motors that are termed "blown" on this and other boards did not really blow rather they had a repairable part fail. Also, consider that (as Adrian Streather describes in his new book) some "failures" may be caused by owners that do not properly maintain their cars.
IMO, Porsche is partly at fault for creating this perception with the design of their current "core exchange" program. For example if a 964 engine has a part fail, the engine is generally torn down and rebuilt. Did the motor "blow"? Depending on the problem probably not, but it might have been described that way if Porsche chose to exchange those motors. (Just imagine if every 993 motor with an SAI issue was "exchanged" and termed a "blown" motor.)
There is nothing about a 996 engine that keeps it from being rebuilt. Porsche and/or aftermarket suppliers could provide parts and the 996 engine could be repaired like any other 911 powerplant (they are beginning to do this now). I suspect that as these cars age (and more parts become available) you will see more people simply repair their motors rather than opt for a core exchange.
I think the program works well for now. The engines are not disposable. They are rebuilt, (only by Porsche rather than by the dealer or a local shop). This benefits both the customer and Porsche. Porsche gets $$ that would have gone to a local shop and the customer gets a basically new motor and a full warranty. Furthermore Porsche can study engines from the field to discover how they are wearing and make improvements. They can also control the quality of any rebuilt motor.
I believe that Porsche probably did have far too many "failures" on early 986's and 996's. However they have worked on the problems over time and fewer of the later motors seem to fail. (i.e. the M96/01 < M96/02 < M96/03 and so on). Consider that the engines in the 997 are basically the same as the 996, but seem to be more trouble free.
Hmmm, how very Porsche like to introduce a new product that turns out to be imperfect and rather than scrap it improve it slowly over time. Seems to me that Porsche is "the same as it ever was".
No one is saying they all fail, and no-one is stupid enough to believe that because their M96 is still working fine there are no problems in the design.
As for folks that have had a failure being interested in speaking about it on the forum - go figure!
Ray - you have a clear agenda, over many months/years, where you trash talk these posts - not sure why you'd want to do that, but hey, it's a free forum.
05-06-2008, 12:10 PM
#122
Rennlist Member
05-06-2008, 12:34 PM
#123
I do try to inform myself... but there is quite a bit of repsonsibility that lies on the owner on the health of their engines... Im not saying that people dont treat the car properly, but lets be honest... there are people that do not treat it properly..
That statement has caused alot of myths about our engines... which is quite sad...
Here are the facts...
"Lokasil is an acronym for a manufacturing process called "Localised Silicon". This process result in crystals becoming embedded in the cylinder walls (which are BORED) during the casting process."
"They are not lined whith Lokasil because there is no such material"... it is more of a process technique than a physical liner.
You know alot of these guys have cracked open the engines and see that there are cracks on the cyl walls... and states "poor design, poor manufacturing process, and poor factory QC." Possibly yes... but you cant discount other factors.
Looking simply at an engine cracked open doesnt tell you eactly happened 100%... there are alot of factors outside of that engine the is essential to the health of the engine.
for example...
Heating.... Im sure there are plenty of guys out there who take the car past 4k on a cold engine as a DD... after awhile...yeah that can cause a crack.
Cooling.... well the car is designed with cross cooling so that the engine rise in temperature uniformly... but if there is lack of coolant. The engine may not warm up uniformly... if the engine is not warming up properly, and if nothing is done soon it may be to late for the engine.... what can cause this... lack of oil.
All of these are probable cause of an engine letting go.
Im not giving an excusing for Porsche... but Im not excusing improper maintenance or use of the car either... This is the main reason why Porsche is in the position that theyre in with our cars. Why should Porsche give you a free engine if they found out it was starved of oil or see you got 200 type 1/2 overevs... just remember. They have the bigger picture of things... we dont.
That statement has caused alot of myths about our engines... which is quite sad...
Here are the facts...
"Lokasil is an acronym for a manufacturing process called "Localised Silicon". This process result in crystals becoming embedded in the cylinder walls (which are BORED) during the casting process."
You refer to 'improper' heating and cooling - and this looks like an attempt to rationalize failures as 'customer caused'.
You can choose to ignore it - you can just choose not to discuss it - or you can get yourself informed and make some decisions based on the information available.
You can choose to ignore it - you can just choose not to discuss it - or you can get yourself informed and make some decisions based on the information available.
You know alot of these guys have cracked open the engines and see that there are cracks on the cyl walls... and states "poor design, poor manufacturing process, and poor factory QC." Possibly yes... but you cant discount other factors.
Looking simply at an engine cracked open doesnt tell you eactly happened 100%... there are alot of factors outside of that engine the is essential to the health of the engine.
for example...
Heating.... Im sure there are plenty of guys out there who take the car past 4k on a cold engine as a DD... after awhile...yeah that can cause a crack.
Cooling.... well the car is designed with cross cooling so that the engine rise in temperature uniformly... but if there is lack of coolant. The engine may not warm up uniformly... if the engine is not warming up properly, and if nothing is done soon it may be to late for the engine.... what can cause this... lack of oil.
All of these are probable cause of an engine letting go.
Im not giving an excusing for Porsche... but Im not excusing improper maintenance or use of the car either... This is the main reason why Porsche is in the position that theyre in with our cars. Why should Porsche give you a free engine if they found out it was starved of oil or see you got 200 type 1/2 overevs... just remember. They have the bigger picture of things... we dont.
05-06-2008, 12:52 PM
#124
Drifting
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I do try to inform myself... but there is quite a bit of repsonsibility that lies on the owner on the health of their engines... Im not saying that people dont treat the car properly, but lets be honest... there are people that do not treat it properly..
That statement has caused alot of myths about our engines... which is quite sad...
Here are the facts...
"Lokasil is an acronym for a manufacturing process called "Localised Silicon". This process result in crystals becoming embedded in the cylinder walls (which are BORED) during the casting process."
"They are not lined whith Lokasil because there is no such material"... it is more of a process technique than a physical liner.
You know alot of these guys have cracked open the engines and see that there are cracks on the cyl walls... and states "poor design, poor manufacturing process, and poor factory QC." Possibly yes... but you cant discount other factors.
Looking simply at an engine cracked open doesnt tell you eactly happened 100%... there are alot of factors outside of that engine the is essential to the health of the engine.
for example...
Heating.... Im sure there are plenty of guys out there who take the car past 4k on a cold engine as a DD... after awhile...yeah that can cause a crack.
Cooling.... well the car is designed with cross cooling so that the engine rise in temperature uniformly... but if there is lack of coolant. The engine may not warm up uniformly... if the engine is not warming up properly, and if nothing is done soon it may be to late for the engine.... what can cause this... lack of oil.
All of these are probable cause of an engine letting go.
Im not giving an excusing for Porsche... but Im not excusing improper maintenance or use of the car either... This is the main reason why Porsche is in the position that theyre in with our cars. Why should Porsche give you a free engine if they found out it was starved of oil or see you got 200 type 1/2 overevs... just remember. They have the bigger picture of things... we dont.
That statement has caused alot of myths about our engines... which is quite sad...
Here are the facts...
"Lokasil is an acronym for a manufacturing process called "Localised Silicon". This process result in crystals becoming embedded in the cylinder walls (which are BORED) during the casting process."
"They are not lined whith Lokasil because there is no such material"... it is more of a process technique than a physical liner.
You know alot of these guys have cracked open the engines and see that there are cracks on the cyl walls... and states "poor design, poor manufacturing process, and poor factory QC." Possibly yes... but you cant discount other factors.
Looking simply at an engine cracked open doesnt tell you eactly happened 100%... there are alot of factors outside of that engine the is essential to the health of the engine.
for example...
Heating.... Im sure there are plenty of guys out there who take the car past 4k on a cold engine as a DD... after awhile...yeah that can cause a crack.
Cooling.... well the car is designed with cross cooling so that the engine rise in temperature uniformly... but if there is lack of coolant. The engine may not warm up uniformly... if the engine is not warming up properly, and if nothing is done soon it may be to late for the engine.... what can cause this... lack of oil.
All of these are probable cause of an engine letting go.
Im not giving an excusing for Porsche... but Im not excusing improper maintenance or use of the car either... This is the main reason why Porsche is in the position that theyre in with our cars. Why should Porsche give you a free engine if they found out it was starved of oil or see you got 200 type 1/2 overevs... just remember. They have the bigger picture of things... we dont.
We all learn something every day - onwards and upwards.
05-06-2008, 01:15 PM
#125
I think we all need to be re-informed about our engines... those canned quotes over and over, does nothing except create layers from the facts... and devalue a great car. Ease up on the 996 guys, I think we all can say its a great car if it doesnt explode... but isnt that the case with just about any car.
05-06-2008, 01:25 PM
#126
Race Car
I've been in correspondence with Adrian (996 Guide) about the 'liner' point this morning - he's convinced that a bad translation from German into English, by Porsche, has caused the misunderstanding about the lining process all along.
We all learn something every day - onwards and upwards.
We all learn something every day - onwards and upwards.
05-06-2008, 01:29 PM
#127
Banned
i don't think we're being hard on the car at all. we're being real about it. we're not putting up a website soliciting M96 owners to post up failures on www.rennlist.com.
i come here everyday and i am just another user reading up on threads and trying to keep up. they post a fact based, real life occurance of a failure and we reply in kind.
that's it. my thread was specifically around if you have a reman then respond by answering a few questions. all of this is real life based. i don't want bad things to spread about something that i myself own. i'm on the same team, but to begin to get scared that all of this that we're doing here is going to devalue the car is absolute nonsense
we have information about the M96 failure because it happened and it will happen again. there are great books that dedicate pages to this because... it happened and it will happen again. it's happened often enough to drive this much conversation/interest. i asked you guys to check out audiworld, ferrarichat, m3forum, s2ki, et al to see what their IMS equivalents are. all i can speak on is from having owned the s2000 (s2ki) and E46 M3 (m3forum), there is no IMS equivalent. There is no RMS equivalent. there is no nda between them and owner. there's little to no fear about an engine blowing up with the f20c/f22c and S54. bmw's rod bearing issue was handled quickly and succinctly many years ago early on in its life. porsche's m96 even with their 40th anniversary '04 version has had 3 IMS blow-ups that amateur new 911 guy ben choi came across just by talking to the owners. these guys aren't hairdressers who buy oil at the convenience store as they fill-up on gas, high fructose corn syrup.
ease up? pls. it's more like at ease fellas, let's just continue to chat it up as it comes along. there's no harm in discussing these things. don't be such pu$$ies.
it happened and will happen again.
i come here everyday and i am just another user reading up on threads and trying to keep up. they post a fact based, real life occurance of a failure and we reply in kind.
that's it. my thread was specifically around if you have a reman then respond by answering a few questions. all of this is real life based. i don't want bad things to spread about something that i myself own. i'm on the same team, but to begin to get scared that all of this that we're doing here is going to devalue the car is absolute nonsense
we have information about the M96 failure because it happened and it will happen again. there are great books that dedicate pages to this because... it happened and it will happen again. it's happened often enough to drive this much conversation/interest. i asked you guys to check out audiworld, ferrarichat, m3forum, s2ki, et al to see what their IMS equivalents are. all i can speak on is from having owned the s2000 (s2ki) and E46 M3 (m3forum), there is no IMS equivalent. There is no RMS equivalent. there is no nda between them and owner. there's little to no fear about an engine blowing up with the f20c/f22c and S54. bmw's rod bearing issue was handled quickly and succinctly many years ago early on in its life. porsche's m96 even with their 40th anniversary '04 version has had 3 IMS blow-ups that amateur new 911 guy ben choi came across just by talking to the owners. these guys aren't hairdressers who buy oil at the convenience store as they fill-up on gas, high fructose corn syrup.
ease up? pls. it's more like at ease fellas, let's just continue to chat it up as it comes along. there's no harm in discussing these things. don't be such pu$$ies.
it happened and will happen again.
05-06-2008, 01:48 PM
#128
Ironman 140.6
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Maybe you missed the part of my post where I said.
Or
My only problem with these threads is that they all seem to turn in to a strange mix of indignation and misinformation that go on for 20 pages. I'd love to have a fact based discussion about these motors and the issues they can possess. There are many different problems that can cause one of these motors to fail. However it is pretty hard to have a meaningful discussion of those when a thread starts with as few details as this....
"Forgot..........my first Porsche, 2000 C2 with 60,000 miles. I've owned it for roughly 8 months and 800 miles. Motor is toast."
Yet, from that we have 9 pages already and if history is a guide here this thread isn't even close to over.
Finally your post seems to take a fairly angry tone toward me by stating that I have an "agenda" and have "trashed talked". If you have a problem with me or my participation on this forum please PM me and I'd be happy to dicsuss it with you.
Last edited by Ray S; 05-06-2008 at 02:45 PM.
05-06-2008, 01:59 PM
#129
Ironman 140.6
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
"They are not lined whith Lokasil because there is no such material"... it is more of a process technique than a physical liner.
Looking simply at an engine cracked open doesnt tell you eactly happened 100%... there are alot of factors outside of that engine the is essential to the health of the engine.
for example...
Heating.... Im sure there are plenty of guys out there who take the car past 4k on a cold engine as a DD... after awhile...yeah that can cause a crack.
Cooling.... well the car is designed with cross cooling so that the engine rise in temperature uniformly... but if there is lack of coolant. The engine may not warm up uniformly... if the engine is not warming up properly, and if nothing is done soon it may be to late for the engine.... what can cause this... lack of oil.
All of these are probable cause of an engine letting go.
Im not giving an excusing for Porsche... but Im not excusing improper maintenance or use of the car either... This is the main reason why Porsche is in the position that theyre in with our cars. Why should Porsche give you a free engine if they found out it was starved of oil or see you got 200 type 1/2 overevs... just remember. They have the bigger picture of things... we dont.
05-06-2008, 02:08 PM
#130
Ben... if you dont want to ease up thats fine, we need people like you. You'd make a good marine! 
When I say ease up... I mean lets not post some of the crap thats been already posted that should be classified as false. or maybe or we dont know. Rather, lets focus on debunking some of the myths, pass on good information and maybe we can all learn something new, like what cdodkin just did.
As far as IMS or RMS equivlant with other cars.... heh, heh I garauntee you they have their issues, it may not be IMS/RMS, but in other forms. All machines do...facts of life.
just because you have a 40th anniv, doesnt mean the car was built by Porsche Motorsport... its the same stuff that all m96 engines are made of. People think the 3.4 is an absolute grenader and if you have a 3.6... your chances are better. How do they know this w/o seeing #'s.... that only Porsche has... these statements are very misleading, because they are basing these on documents that were produced 5-8 years ago that are based on misinformation... that Streather is trying to make clear...
Also, to those that are in the 1st porsche market... when they come here and see these type of discussion that we have... would you buy a 996? ls911 in post #67 said that if he'd known earlier it might go differently... meaning he might opt for a different car.... yes, lack of sale in a used car market tends to devalue cars.
Agreed! No harm in discussing... as long as its constructive.
When I say ease up... I mean lets not post some of the crap thats been already posted that should be classified as false. or maybe or we dont know. Rather, lets focus on debunking some of the myths, pass on good information and maybe we can all learn something new, like what cdodkin just did.As far as IMS or RMS equivlant with other cars.... heh, heh I garauntee you they have their issues, it may not be IMS/RMS, but in other forms. All machines do...facts of life.
just because you have a 40th anniv, doesnt mean the car was built by Porsche Motorsport... its the same stuff that all m96 engines are made of. People think the 3.4 is an absolute grenader and if you have a 3.6... your chances are better. How do they know this w/o seeing #'s.... that only Porsche has... these statements are very misleading, because they are basing these on documents that were produced 5-8 years ago that are based on misinformation... that Streather is trying to make clear...
Also, to those that are in the 1st porsche market... when they come here and see these type of discussion that we have... would you buy a 996? ls911 in post #67 said that if he'd known earlier it might go differently... meaning he might opt for a different car.... yes, lack of sale in a used car market tends to devalue cars.
Agreed! No harm in discussing... as long as its constructive.
05-06-2008, 02:08 PM
#131
Rennlist Member
Boy! I must be bored to read this whole thing:
Orrin, I'm really sorry about your motor. Your sad and pissed and wanted a place to vent. Where's a better place than with your RL brethren?
Perry and others hit it on the head. Porsches are expensive to own. Hell, adjusting the valves on my 964 is easily a $1500 job and is recommended every 15-20,000 miles. In 80,000 miles, I've bought a 996 motor. And that's JUST the valves. There's a price for 0-60 in 5.5 seconds or less. I think it's tough when people find that price after they buy the car.
As far as the value, I think all are correct in one way or the other. I do think there's a precieved value, just like in Yahoo stock. If everyone thinks a 996 is crap and no one wants one, the price goes down.
Again Orrin, this is your thread and I know it's tough. All I'll say is wait a week before making a decision. Shop around and make a good financial decision. To me, that would have to be replacing the motor. Then if you still want to sell, a new motor will cut your losses IMHO.
My guess? You'll pay to fix your motor, drive it home, renew your RL membership and be driving your 996 next year.
Best of luck!
Orrin, I'm really sorry about your motor. Your sad and pissed and wanted a place to vent. Where's a better place than with your RL brethren?
Perry and others hit it on the head. Porsches are expensive to own. Hell, adjusting the valves on my 964 is easily a $1500 job and is recommended every 15-20,000 miles. In 80,000 miles, I've bought a 996 motor. And that's JUST the valves. There's a price for 0-60 in 5.5 seconds or less. I think it's tough when people find that price after they buy the car.
As far as the value, I think all are correct in one way or the other. I do think there's a precieved value, just like in Yahoo stock. If everyone thinks a 996 is crap and no one wants one, the price goes down.
Again Orrin, this is your thread and I know it's tough. All I'll say is wait a week before making a decision. Shop around and make a good financial decision. To me, that would have to be replacing the motor. Then if you still want to sell, a new motor will cut your losses IMHO.
My guess? You'll pay to fix your motor, drive it home, renew your RL membership and be driving your 996 next year.
Best of luck!
05-06-2008, 02:56 PM
#132
Racer
OK...I read several pages of this thread and then just skipped to the end...it's possible the point I'm going to make has been made but I'll make it anyway.
The big frustration with regard to the engine failures is it flies in the face of Porsche's reputation for building race proven, bullet proof engines. "Porsches don't break" has been uttered on many race tracks over the years and now that's not the case. Were they ever perfect, hell no...I'm rebuilding the engine on my '88 due to valve guides but it never exploded and it was more of an annoyance that a catastrophic failure. For my next car I'd been looking at a 996 but have basically talked myself out of it and into a 996 Turbo since they are getting downright reasonable. Porsche's reputation is definitely affected by this issue. I also don't see the point of comments that seem to imply if failed engines bother you then maybe you shouldn't be in this game...please, that's not the point at all.
The big frustration with regard to the engine failures is it flies in the face of Porsche's reputation for building race proven, bullet proof engines. "Porsches don't break" has been uttered on many race tracks over the years and now that's not the case. Were they ever perfect, hell no...I'm rebuilding the engine on my '88 due to valve guides but it never exploded and it was more of an annoyance that a catastrophic failure. For my next car I'd been looking at a 996 but have basically talked myself out of it and into a 996 Turbo since they are getting downright reasonable. Porsche's reputation is definitely affected by this issue. I also don't see the point of comments that seem to imply if failed engines bother you then maybe you shouldn't be in this game...please, that's not the point at all.
05-06-2008, 03:21 PM
#133
Drifting
Join Date: May 2006
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Hmm, that's a pretty heavy statement.
Maybe you missed the part of my post where I said.
Or
You seem to "read" that my post was directed at you (it wasn't). Should I "read" from your post that since I have not experienced a failure that I should stay out of this thread?
My only problem with these threads is that they all seem to turn in to a strange mix of indignation and misinformation that go on for 20 pages. I'd love to have a fact based discussion about these motors and the issues they can possess. There are many different problems that can cause one of these motors to fail. However it is pretty hard to have a meaningful discussion of those when a thread starts with as few details as this....
"Forgot..........my first Porsche, 2000 C2 with 60,000 miles. I've owned it for roughly 8 months and 800 miles. Motor is toast."
Yet, from that we have 9 pages already and if history is a guide here this thread isn't even close to over.
Finally your post seems to take a fairly angry tone toward me by stating that I have an "agenda" and have "trashed talked". If you have a problem with me or my participation on this forum please PM me and I'd be happy to dicsuss it with you.
Maybe you missed the part of my post where I said.
Or
You seem to "read" that my post was directed at you (it wasn't). Should I "read" from your post that since I have not experienced a failure that I should stay out of this thread?
My only problem with these threads is that they all seem to turn in to a strange mix of indignation and misinformation that go on for 20 pages. I'd love to have a fact based discussion about these motors and the issues they can possess. There are many different problems that can cause one of these motors to fail. However it is pretty hard to have a meaningful discussion of those when a thread starts with as few details as this....
"Forgot..........my first Porsche, 2000 C2 with 60,000 miles. I've owned it for roughly 8 months and 800 miles. Motor is toast."
Yet, from that we have 9 pages already and if history is a guide here this thread isn't even close to over.
Finally your post seems to take a fairly angry tone toward me by stating that I have an "agenda" and have "trashed talked". If you have a problem with me or my participation on this forum please PM me and I'd be happy to dicsuss it with you.
That's the way it comes across whether intentional or not.
05-06-2008, 03:24 PM
#134
Burning Brakes
Just because I'm lazy, what exactly is downright reasonable these days for a 996 TT? What are the physical diffferences in the core motor that has prevented them from having RMS/IMS issues?
05-06-2008, 03:33 PM
#135
Ironman 140.6
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Some times they do "blow" or as you term it "explode" in a catastrophic failure. However, often they are repairable (thats one reason Porsche wants them back) but are replaced because it is easier and more cost effective to replace. (In fact Porsche replaced more than a few early 986 and 996 motors do to RMS oil leaks and some termed these "blown".)