why is the 993 worth so much more than a 996?
06-21-2007, 09:58 PM
#256
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by long_beach_968
These trophies and mini plaques are from my local track named willow. I never get out to coney things as they are on Sundays. Its okay though The 996 guys never seem to hang around for trophy time, seems they already knew they lost. 
(just to clarify, I'm talking about the 996's I share a class with, of course the turbos and GT3's mop the floor with us all day long)
(just to clarify, I'm talking about the 996's I share a class with, of course the turbos and GT3's mop the floor with us all day long)
06-22-2007, 12:00 AM
#257
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Originally Posted by long_beach_968
These trophies and mini plaques are from my local track named willow. I never get out to coney things as they are on Sundays. Its okay though The 996 guys never seem to hang around for trophy time, seems they already knew they lost. (just to clarify, I'm talking about the 996's I share a class with, of course the turbos and GT3's mop the floor with us all day long)
(just to clarify, I'm talking about the 996's I share a class with, of course the turbos and GT3's mop the floor with us all day long)
06-23-2007, 08:42 AM
#259
Originally Posted by sptschoice
huh? very quiet here 
You can always re-read the thread, and re-read this one:
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/360201-why-is-the-993-sooo-far-superior-to-all-other-porsches.html
06-23-2007, 10:16 AM
#260
Aficionado
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Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Kevin H. in Atl..
Apparently it has become boring.
You can always re-read the thread, and re-read this one:
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=360201
You can always re-read the thread, and re-read this one:
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=360201
06-24-2007, 07:04 AM
#261
6th Gear
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Don't worry...all Porsches will be coming down in value...why you say?
This might answer your question
or this
This one's a doozy!
So is this
As we say on HP...
Got Popcorn?
Peace...I'm outta here
This might answer your question
or this
This one's a doozy!
So is this
As we say on HP...
Got Popcorn?
Peace...I'm outta here
03-17-2008, 06:57 PM
#262
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Just sold my 1995 nicely modified C2 and bought '02 Turbo because of the ridiculous value of the cars. I agree the 993s have intriguing noises and so forth, but they also have loads of wind noise and rattles. The 996 is like a trip into this time period. I loved the 993 look, although the 996 looks much more up to date (headlights, etc). If you like old technology, noise, and repair bills, go with the 993. I loved mine, but the 996 is a breath of fresh air (or should I say water). By the way, I want to lower mine a bit. What is the best way to go for mostly street use?
03-17-2008, 07:16 PM
#264
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Considering a similar move myself. What sort of $$$ delta was there between the 993 C2 and the 996TT?
Love the looks of the 993 and the wonderful yellow color but.... I guess I need to drive a 996 and see how I like it first... down the slope I go.... down down down.... (I guess I could replace my CLK and 993 with a nice 996....)
Love the looks of the 993 and the wonderful yellow color but.... I guess I need to drive a 996 and see how I like it first... down the slope I go.... down down down.... (I guess I could replace my CLK and 993 with a nice 996....)
03-17-2008, 07:41 PM
#265
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03-18-2008, 09:41 AM
#266
Racer
The "geeky engineer" has the best answer...
I think that's part of it. They are very interesting cars to a geeky engineer like me and I think this combines with basic supply and demand. Being fortunate enoough to be an owner of an '87 Carrera and a 996 let me put my perspective on it.
The demand...
To the die hard enthusiast the Porsche 911 is something sacred. It was conceived as a relatively simple and light weight sports car. Some will argue that the original 911 ended in 1989 with the '84-'89 3.2 Carrera. Some will tell you that even those are not true to the original concept and they have too many gadgets to add weight. Others will say the 993 is the final 'pure' Porsche. Of course this is all subjective, but there are people who just want a 'classic' air cooled Porsche. I suppose this is actually helped by the guys who insist that a 911 must be air cooled. Call them snobby if you like, but they are probably pretty smart as their attitude is maintaining the mystique surrounding their cars. Basically the enthusiasts are the ones driving the demand, defining a 'classic' 911 to the guy who's looking for a 'classic' 911.
Of course there are those of us who see any Porsche 911 as a Porsche 911, and the 996 is a stunning 911. Of course there is still a demand for these too. Ask any guy in the street if he'd want a 911 and what's he going to say? But it is a different market, less controlled if you like, and the used 996 is having to compete on the used car lot with other sports and luxury cars.
The supply...
The 993 wasn't produced in anything like the numbers in which the 996 was produced. Even when new I would guess that the 993 was going to be a car that someone would buy and keep for years. The 996 on the other hand made a great high end lease or company car. These don't tend to be kept very long and sooner or later end up back on the market when they get traded in for a new Mercedes. So not only were there fewer 993's about in the first place, but of those that are out there relatively few end up on the market. Just search the internet and see how many 993's are for sale compared to 996's. I would virtually guarantee that the 993 to 996 ratio is at least 1 to 15, probably more.
So to address the original question. A 993 is worth more than a 996 because there is a niche demand for the relatively few 993's that are available, whereas there are plenty of used 996's that have to be priced to appeal to a far wider demographic of customer.
As a side note, the whole air cooled thing is an interesting concept. There is no doubt in my mind that the air cooled car's evolution is an engineering epic. But it got to the point where it was impractical to develop it further while meeting regulations and remaining competitive in the sports carmarket. To keep up with the competition Porsche needed to keep increasing power output and maintaining relaibilty without spending a fortune on exotic materials. The only realistic option that Porsche had was to switch to water cooled engines to increase efficiency. The air cooled guys can bash this as long as they want, but if Porsche hadn't changed I don't believe they would have survived as an automaker.
Change is inevitable, like it or not, and Porsche has continuously evolved the 911 line throughout its history. Without the change the 911 wouldn't have been around as long as it has and wouldn't be the icon it still is today. It doesn't matter to the general public how the engine is cooled the 911, 964, 993, 996 and 997 are all 911's. They are seen seen as something special and every new 911 always will be as long as Porsche are willing to continue to evolve the car.
Like it or not, the 911 probably wouldn't have survived much longer had Porsche not switched to water cooled engines. Which would you prefer?
The demand...
To the die hard enthusiast the Porsche 911 is something sacred. It was conceived as a relatively simple and light weight sports car. Some will argue that the original 911 ended in 1989 with the '84-'89 3.2 Carrera. Some will tell you that even those are not true to the original concept and they have too many gadgets to add weight. Others will say the 993 is the final 'pure' Porsche. Of course this is all subjective, but there are people who just want a 'classic' air cooled Porsche. I suppose this is actually helped by the guys who insist that a 911 must be air cooled. Call them snobby if you like, but they are probably pretty smart as their attitude is maintaining the mystique surrounding their cars. Basically the enthusiasts are the ones driving the demand, defining a 'classic' 911 to the guy who's looking for a 'classic' 911.
Of course there are those of us who see any Porsche 911 as a Porsche 911, and the 996 is a stunning 911. Of course there is still a demand for these too. Ask any guy in the street if he'd want a 911 and what's he going to say? But it is a different market, less controlled if you like, and the used 996 is having to compete on the used car lot with other sports and luxury cars.
The supply...
The 993 wasn't produced in anything like the numbers in which the 996 was produced. Even when new I would guess that the 993 was going to be a car that someone would buy and keep for years. The 996 on the other hand made a great high end lease or company car. These don't tend to be kept very long and sooner or later end up back on the market when they get traded in for a new Mercedes. So not only were there fewer 993's about in the first place, but of those that are out there relatively few end up on the market. Just search the internet and see how many 993's are for sale compared to 996's. I would virtually guarantee that the 993 to 996 ratio is at least 1 to 15, probably more.
So to address the original question. A 993 is worth more than a 996 because there is a niche demand for the relatively few 993's that are available, whereas there are plenty of used 996's that have to be priced to appeal to a far wider demographic of customer.
As a side note, the whole air cooled thing is an interesting concept. There is no doubt in my mind that the air cooled car's evolution is an engineering epic. But it got to the point where it was impractical to develop it further while meeting regulations and remaining competitive in the sports carmarket. To keep up with the competition Porsche needed to keep increasing power output and maintaining relaibilty without spending a fortune on exotic materials. The only realistic option that Porsche had was to switch to water cooled engines to increase efficiency. The air cooled guys can bash this as long as they want, but if Porsche hadn't changed I don't believe they would have survived as an automaker.
Change is inevitable, like it or not, and Porsche has continuously evolved the 911 line throughout its history. Without the change the 911 wouldn't have been around as long as it has and wouldn't be the icon it still is today. It doesn't matter to the general public how the engine is cooled the 911, 964, 993, 996 and 997 are all 911's. They are seen seen as something special and every new 911 always will be as long as Porsche are willing to continue to evolve the car.
Like it or not, the 911 probably wouldn't have survived much longer had Porsche not switched to water cooled engines. Which would you prefer?
Andy T
03-18-2008, 11:09 AM
#267
Race Car
I dont buy the whole Porsche needed to evolve to water-cooling. Ask the 1000hp guys if there is a cooling problem on their air-cooleds. Figuring out the cooling equation to lean the motor at idle to meet emissions shouldnt be a major issue, it is simply more airflow around the jugs and more air through the oil coolers. My 500hp engine runs cool even on 90 degree days after mashing on the loud pedal on every street I encounter.
They (Porsche) should of just used another cooling fan on the engine and more oil coolers for the oil..........I still dont buy it......there was something else going on
They (Porsche) should of just used another cooling fan on the engine and more oil coolers for the oil..........I still dont buy it......there was something else going on
03-18-2008, 11:25 AM
#268
What he is right about is that the 993 guys keep their cars' mystique alive. Whatever all the barroom economists on boards like this think, the fact is that market value is largely subjective. Why is gas so expensive? Supply? No. Supply is at a 15 year high. It's expensive because of speculators who don't have anywhere else to put their money right now, and pump prices are tied to futures. How about a share of Bear Stearns? Would have set you back $159 not too many weeks ago. Their friends up the street picked up the company for $2 a share last week. Same company as it was, valued on hope last year and valued on fear last week. In 2002, the Nobel Prize for Economics went to a guy who was finally able to convince the world that psychology has more to do with 'value' than supply or demand.
A large part of the problem with 996 values is us. The fact is that a 993 owner can potentially expect to spend as much money over the life of his car on repairs as a 996 owner could replacing his motor could. But to those guys, these things are a badge of honour for owning a Porsche. To 996 owners, they are an outrageous example of engineering incompetence and corporate negligence. All how you choose to see it. And as values continue to fall, more and more people who don't buy into the romance of Porsche and don't have deep pockets are going to buy them, be disappointed, and tell the world.
03-18-2008, 11:35 AM
#269
Ironman 140.6
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I dont buy the whole Porsche needed to evolve to water-cooling. Ask the 1000hp guys if there is a cooling problem on their air-cooleds. Figuring out the cooling equation to lean the motor at idle to meet emissions shouldnt be a major issue, it is simply more airflow around the jugs and more air through the oil coolers. My 500hp engine runs cool even on 90 degree days after mashing on the loud pedal on every street I encounter.
They (Porsche) should of just used another cooling fan on the engine and more oil coolers for the oil..........I still dont buy it......there was something else going on
They (Porsche) should of just used another cooling fan on the engine and more oil coolers for the oil..........I still dont buy it......there was something else going on
If you don't buy Porsche's stated reason, what else was going on? Why do you think they are lying?
03-18-2008, 11:38 AM
#270
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I dont buy the whole Porsche needed to evolve to water-cooling. Ask the 1000hp guys if there is a cooling problem on their air-cooleds. Figuring out the cooling equation to lean the motor at idle to meet emissions shouldnt be a major issue, it is simply more airflow around the jugs and more air through the oil coolers. My 500hp engine runs cool even on 90 degree days after mashing on the loud pedal on every street I encounter.
They (Porsche) should of just used another cooling fan on the engine and more oil coolers for the oil..........I still dont buy it......there was something else going on
They (Porsche) should of just used another cooling fan on the engine and more oil coolers for the oil..........I still dont buy it......there was something else going on
I agree the 911 is a great automotive icon but in reality the enthusiasts and marketing department are keeping Porsche from building the best race and street cars they can. I’ll say it again, let the 911 continue as a great GT car but free the engineers to build us the best sports cars they can.