Carlos

Great post Tex. You apparently have very good taste in automobiles.

Dock, all advantages were slight. And it wouldnt be the first time their interpertation of the results were a little confusing. Be that as it may, the results are clear. Also I'm not knocking Porshe. I'm a fan. Always have been. It just pisses me off when people can't admit that any car, any where, can do any thing better than a Porsche. And the 911 guys are the worst st this.

Dock

Carlos, if you think I can't admit it when "any car can do anything better than than a Porsche", then you've missed by a country mile.

BTW, I don't make car choices based on magazine articles. But I do read things and ask myself "does this make sense" and "do the conclusions seem valid" based on the data/evidence/logic.

George 911-V8

Dock if what you say is true then what about the everyday track THE STREET. A Z06 kicks the a$$ of a 996 and 993 twin turbo hands down. The C & D could be a little wrong lets just say it is, then how do you explain the street? just some food for thought.


SWAMP MONSTER

adrial

Of a 996 and a 993TT...ok good...Chevy can beat a 4 year old turbo and a recent non turbo, non top of the line car with their new top of the line car. Besides, just check out the lap times from the Nurburgring.

check em out

Do you really think a vette with 70 more HP and suspension mods would be able shave a full minute of it's near 9 minute time????

The Z06 is a great car...but I dont think its quicker around the Nurburgring than a 996TT.

Dock

That's easy. In street encounters (and on the track for that matter)it's who's behind the wheel that that counts, given similar cars. (i.e. n/a in a '80 Volvo versus a '01 Cobra).

Probably 90% of acceleration "tests" done from a stand still is the launch, and not all drivers are created equal in this area. Reaction time also plays into the equation.

In a rolling encounter, it's even more difficult to say it was a clean run. When is the "fight" really on? In a lead/trail situation there could be a second or two difference in flooring it; if you're not right on the guys bumper or his exhaust isn't loud enough to hear, you have to go on exhaust smoke or a visual indication that there' a run going. Being in the wrong gear, or having to take the time to downshift(driver again) can make all the difference in the world too.

It's not hard to fumble away a couple of seconds on the "street". Just how much faster was one car versus the other to begin with? A few tenths, half a second?

In the Boxster S for example, a driver will give up about 3 sec for every gear he's out of "optimum". For example, 80-100 mph in sixth is about 3 sec slower than fourth, which is about 3 sec slower than third.

Also, it can be hard to tell when one of the drivers "stops" running, resulting in false conclusions.

For me at least, a car that may "win" in a street encounter, or in a magazine test, doesn't mean that car is "better" than the other car.

Carlos

So if I follow your line of reasoning, Porsche drivers are generally not as good as Corvette drivers?

Dock

Nope, you don't follow my line of reasoning.

Jim Hodel

I've been reading this thread with great interest, and I honestly do not understand why some of you are so defensive about the new Z06.

GM has made a world class sports car at a very good price. It isn't 1978 anymore, and Corvettes have come a long long way, more so relatively then Porsche, I believe.

The C and D test has the slowest times I've seen for a 996TT, but at 3115 pounds and 405 horsepower, the Z06 is a fast car. And, it has quite an array of luxury features as well. Drive one with an open mind and you will be impressed, maybe not enough to buy one, but at least enough to admit that it’s one heck of a car for under $50k.

I don't know much about these Nurburgring tests, but why would I trust these statistics any more then some other magazines I could quote from? Spend some time driving at track days and you will see that Porsches are not the only fast cars.

I truly understand that you have a preference for the combination of style, character, engineering, and performance embodied in the 911 series, especially the turbo cars, but there really are other fast and desirable cars out there in the world.

Jim

Joe@Fabspeed

well said Jim. I made the original post that started this thread. I hope Porsche AG management gets the message........I know they read this stuff. The GT3 should have been brought into the USA.....that would have made the Z06 comparisons perhaps moot. A lot of guys are car snobs.....wouldnt be seen in a domestic made sportscar which is 100% stupid....but nevertheless their choice. I would love to have a fllet of cars in my garage from Vipers to Vettes to Porcshe race & street cars to Ferraris. Given value and wanting speed a Corvette Z06 "Coupe" deposit has been made.....and I keep the 993 and other toys when it comes in "if it comes in"! There is talk of 450HP small block Z06s comeing out soon. How can anyone lose EXCEPT if it snows.....and no Porsche even C4$ are good on 18" tires in any snow/icy conditions!!!!! Too bad the SALEEN S7R isnt priced at $125,000.......i would be in a second......who else would drive a SALEEN S7 IF YOU COULD BUY 1 FOR $100K TO $125K.? Are you in or out?

Carlos

Jim and Club, your posts were like a breath of fresh air. Well said.

Pigface1

FWIW. .Just the fact that a $50,000 car can run with a $140K+ car says A lot. I would love to have a TT Porsche.

Comparing a Z06 to a car three times as expensive is not a fair comparison. . . a Lingenfelter Twin Turbo vs a Twin Turbo Porsche are similar, however.
http://www.lingenfelter.com/packages...ng_stageII.htm

I agree with Dock in that the driver is more important than the car 99% of the time, no matter what kind of race. Many people that buy Vipers get in wrecks w/in one mile of driving off the lot. . reason is, they have a beast of a car, but lack the skill to operate it on the street (much less on a track).

A lot of people slam vettes that have never even driven them(C5s in particular), and the same goes for slamming Porsches. I've driven 911s and 928s and I love them. To each their own. I, however, get tired of all the talk and then when I see a Porsche on the street, it's a different story. Twisties ahead or not, they know what will happen unless they're in a Twin Turbo. If anyone in the OKC area would like to prove me wrong at Hallet, an autocross, or Thunder Valley, please do.

There are some very knowledgable people on this board. . but there are also some bench racers that don't know what they're talking about.

This is your board, no disrespect, just my opinion.

Pigface1

And I 100% agree with Club and Jim.

There are people on the vette boards that are snobs about driving vettes and slam the "clown shoe" viper, "rustangs", "ricers", etc.

All performance cars have some sort of stereotype that goes with them.

I want a fleet of crazy sports cars too. . 959, Callaway Sledgehammer, F1, F60, and the 6 figure SALEEN, etc. But, I don't have that kind of money.

Frank Brown

Too bad the Corvette beats out the 996TT in the performance category. But I've owned Corvettes and they're like big boats in the sense that the two happiest days are the day you buy it and the day you sell it. I learned to hate my Corvette. Yes, performance was good. I even liked it better than a friend's Ferrari (okay, so I was stupid). But the Corvette is like every other American manufactured car - made not to last. A year after I bought it, things started breaking. One right after another. Look at the percentage of Porsches ever made that are still on the road. Now look at the percentage of Corvettes ever made that are still on the road. When I sell my 996, someone else will have many years of happiness with it and when they sell it, someone else will enjoy the same.

So, right now, Porsche lags behind Corvettes in the performance department, but five years from now my 996 will still be going strong. Where will the Corvette be? My money went for the Porsche - a smart move, IMO. Besides, other than autocross, how many 996s (nonGT) or Z06s are really going to be raced?

Mako

While some good points have been made, I feel a few clarifications are in order.

If you read the comparision article closely, you will note that ALL cars, including the powerful TUNER cars, had slow times--it was the conditions, not the cars. Porsche had a top car and a top driver there. This is a dead issue. No ringers were involved.

The article put an exclaimation point on a HUGE problem with Porsche. For years now, the Porsches have been under-powered and over-priced. No way to suger-coat this, just an objective fact. The interior on the car is just not that nice, and the door slam is not that different. (I owned a 911 before). The Porsche also has nowhere near the "curb-appeal" of Ferrari.

The Z06 has an excellent ride on the track and the street. I use my car as a daily driver.

Stock, the 2002 Z06 and the 996TT are a dead heat for all practical purposes--it will come down to the driver.

By adding $25k to the base price of the Z06 ($53k out the door) ($78K total invested), I have enhanced braking, harness bar, Sparco 6-point, Nakamichi stereo, and a drivable, smogable 600hp car. Yes, it is a Chevy and will never be a Porsche, but so what? The driving pleasure is awesome and I can put luggage and 2 sets of golf clubs in the trunk.

In my one-person opinion, Porsche has lost all sight of the performance market and has a great deal of catch-up to do. A base price of $180K+ for the GT2 is nothing short of obscene.

I really do love Porsches and racing (I track my car) so I would love to see some resurgence of the Porsche Marque--especially in terms of value. At $85K the GT2 is a reasonable (not great) value; at $180K+ (more likely $230K) it is... well,you know.

To further drive home my point, see the whopping 15hp (crank) increase in 2003 for the 996! At least Porsche is working on getting V8s into the car soon.

Porsche owners have a right to expect more--for less!

CC993

Three points...

1. A Corvette is very "car centered" automobile whereas 911's are very "driver centered"...when you sit in a vette, you are completely engulphed by the car...when you sit in a 911, it has been engineered to produce the optimal driving position, ie., you feel one with the car which is then transfered to the road...I have never been able to get beyond this glaring engineering fault which has characterized post '65 Corvettes...I could go on and on in the same vane but I will spare everybody the verbage...

2. Those who compare the cost of the Corvette and the 911 are doing so incorrectly...there is "use value" and then there is "money value"...the money value of the car is mostly determined by supply and demand...if Chevy thought they could get 911 prices, that's what they would charge...the use value of this type of cars is the pleasure one derives from it...this is totally individual (and perhaps somewhat social)...use value and money value sometimes have little baring on one another...consider a 100K home in Podunk, AK...the same home would be worth at least ten times that amount in San Fransisco although they have the same exact use value...

3. You people are thinking way too much go out and enjoy your car