Carlos

If you believe that last load of BS, here's s statement for you. From Lou Rothman, owner of JR cigars, the largest cigar dist. on earth. "They've been making cigars since before Columbus got here. But it took untill just recently to find a fool to pay over ten dollars for one." If my language is not exact on the quote I appologize to Mr. Rothman. But I believe it to be correct and completely correct in spirit.

alex 95 993

Whats so hard to understand about the last post, particularly the difference between use value and money value. I find it quite informative and on the money. I live in Northern Califorinia in your average "affordable" tract-housing. Put my house anywhere else in the states and it would cost 1/3 what it costs here. Is it worth it? Depends what you want out of life and what the market will bear. I've personally decided that the climate, number of hi-tech companies in the area etc.. make it worth-while. Apparently many other people have decided too as well or else housing wouldn't be sky high. I also know some people that have decided the cost of housing is not worth it.
Its the same with the 911. It costs what the market will bear. Some people decide its worth it (even though a Kia will get you from A to B during a commute in roughly the same amount of tim), other people decide its not worth it. Even though the "use value" is the same the "money value" is high enough for some people to go out and buy a porsche.

Seems pretty straight-forward to me. My non-porsche purist tiptronic cabriolet is certainly worth both its use-cost and monetary-cost.

Jeff C

Oh no! Don't get us started on the tiptronic transmission!

Carlos

So's the cigar to the guy that forks over the money.

Mako

"Use value," smuse value! While it is true that everyone is entitled to like what they want for any reason or no reason at all (which is what I believe you are trying to say), this is really not the point being stressed here. The one poster likes his tiptronic car and that is fine.

However, the point really under discussion is why Porsche has strayed from its former quest or mission statement to build the best, highest performing production cars at some semblance in value. (See post above).

As for "car-centered," etc., are you sure that is just incense you are burining in your NorCal pad? The Z06 is very comfortable and has an excellent driving position and cockpit. Perhaps your are thinking about a Viper. Why don't we meet at Willow Springs road course and see which car feels better on the track and on the road to lunch?

All that said, it is fine for everyone to like what they like. I for one would just like to be able to admire Porsche for more than its solid build quality.

Flying Finn

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JBH:
<STRONG>I can't believe anyone would try to rationalize the results of the test.

I know we all love Porsche, we don't seem to be listening. Porsche has told us over and over again they don't care about out-performing the best from Chevrolet, Mercedes, Audi, Ferrari, Dodge, or any other performance car manufacturer.

Their only baseline is the previous model year. They strive to provide better handling, better performance, and more luxury than the prior year.

We see the very evidence of this in the C&D article, in the fact they show no interest in racing programs, and they place so much emphasis the American market (Yes, we Americans are to blame for the SUV).

It's like not being able to see someone's faults because you are blinded by love. Let's take a cold shower and wake up to the reality. Until they see their market share dropping to the likes of the Corvette, Viper, or other performance cars, they'll keep on do what makes them the most money.</STRONG>[/

Spot on JBH.

Porsches (& the whole compay) IMO are getting more and more away from a 'real sports car' and going towards 'luxury sporty car' (sorry about those category names, couldn't fine better descriptions, I hope you know what I mean).

I don't like what I'm hearing/seeing. I've always assured my friend (who has Vette) that porsche is 'real' spots car & ex. Vette is 'luxury sporty car' type of vechile. We agreed on that. But it seems that tables are turnig I'm afraid

David G

Well, here's my (OT) .02 regarding the M-cars, having spent time in each of them..the E36 BMW M3 is one of the roughest riding cars I've been in, especially the sedan. The E46 M3 is TOO soft, it feels springy, 'floaty' and disconnected, along with overboosted power steering. The M5 has gobs of torque, but it's a pig in a corner, it feels heavy and it IS heavy. These are only MHO! Thanks, David

Joe@Fabspeed

Porsche can make fast(er) cars that offer ZO6 performance all day long. They choose not too doit currently for the USA. The GT3 can have 400HP and is lightweight...I would like one of these. May the new 911 will have a V8 with some big *****. All Porsches are refined just give me a "steel- fist in a lightweight velvet glove"! No excuses ...2nd place is 1st loser.

The Nurburgring fastest laptimes really dont signify anything for many cars for these simple honest reasons. Many manufacturers dont bring professional racing drivers , a crew, and raceengineers over the the old ring to get these special times as they dont value that as "marketing data" or of relevance in the big scheme of things!

I love Porcshe cars and always will have one.....but if General Motors or Diamler Chrysler brought in professional drivers and Corvette Z06/CR5 and Vipers GTSr/GT2R....and had their engineers there like the Germans do all the time in perfect weather and steup conditions dont you agree that Ron Fellows and Olvier Berretta/Karl Wendlinger could post some outrageously fast top-lap times. Damn right they would.

The Cayenne is late to market vis a vis SUV sales/marketing and growth curves. I hope Porcshe sells a ton of them.....make solid profits and then gets back into racing for all out wins and sells V8 GT3 911s and other fast lightweight cool cars. I think it will happen and make us proud.......if the Cayenne doesnt sell they retrench even further back on racing and Volkswagen will absorb Porsche.

Lastly, many Porcshe cars ride very poorly....dont just slam Vettes/BMWs without knowledge and everyones "fee" of ride quality is different. Torsion bar equiped 911s up to 1989 didnt ride good at all.......new C5 vettes ride great....GT2 Porsche rides "poorly" many automotive writers have stated.......thats garbage the new GT2 is a pussycat and is stock!

dpeel

Also remember that everything is relative. Somebody like that's never driven a Porsche and only driven Vettes may say that a Z06 is comfy. To her/him it is. No somebody else who just took a Z06 out for a demo ride but has lived his/her life driving Porsches, the Z06 may feel raw and uncomfortable. Everybody is talking from their own experiences and opinions. So most of the stuff we read we need to take with a grain of salt. Some of it with a full shaker.

STRSHP

OK, I have read some but not all of the "comments" in this thread. Bottom line for me is they parked the 'vettes at LeMans so they could actually finish under their own power. The teams raced the Porsches to the end. There in lies the difference for me. Commitment to the highest quality, longest lasting as opposed to those who believe a win at any cost is still as sweet. Far be it from me to tell anyone what to drive and the reverse should also be true. Porsche has proven themselves time and again in racing. When Chevy has as many wins, come on in and talk.

Pigface1

The C5R beat every car in every class of the Rolex 24 Hours of Daytona this year. Maybe that was just luck though.

Greg Fishman

Pigface1,
But the C5 sat in the pits for the last couple hours as they were worried about their tranny (I think). The class winning Porsche GT3RS wasn't far behind. I think if the Corvette had continued running it would have been lights out, (which is why they did what they did). Personally I think they took the cheap way out,racing is about risks and especially in endurance racing you try to minimize them but by simply sitting in the pits because they are afraid is BS. The vette did win though, no matter what one thinks of their tactics, but how many years did it take for them to build a car that was capable of finishing?
I'd bet both my 993's that if you took four or five 996's, 993's and Z06's and ran a 24 hour endurance race their won't be any corvettes that last the full race.

Greg

DJ

I'm in.

Graham

Well, as an owner of both I have say that the ride quality of the Z06 is excellent and definitely comparable to my 2000 996 cab. The combination of power and weight distribution is extremely refined and results in the 'vette feeling more comparable in size to the Porsche.

I love both of them - unreservedly. They are different in driving experience both aurally and in the seat of your pants. I've got the Porsche for day to day & weekend fun and the Z06 for track days and the rest of the time that the Porsche isn't in the shop. (The Z06 would also make an ideal daily driver too - very fast one too.)

No religion here ... just fun cars!

Pigface1

I'll keep that in mind next time I try to take a stock vehicle out to the track to race 24 hours straight.

It is amazing, though, that the vette was so far ahead that it had the luxury to sit back and relax for a while. lol

Don't make excuses, just say, "Good race" and get on with it.