That's quite telling. Data from a track with all the best elements of twists and straights. Very cool post, thanks.

 

The depth of the data is impressive. Where's the v12 x5 BMW that ran below 8 seconds? If you think an S2000 can beat a Z06 at anything, go get one. The country's full of Z06 drivers that would love to take your money.

 

I posted this on alt.autos.porsche and someone gave me a link to a more complete listing of times.
Here it is

It includes a lot more cars than the previous website I looked at (like the X5 with the 700HP engine).

 

That may be the standard C5 Vette (for old folks in their mid-life crisis , just a joke, nobody take that personally now), but I bet you anything a Z06 would not rank above the 993TurboS in a real varied and long track like Nurburgring, Carlos.
BTW don´t underestimate the S2000, we are talking about REAL handling here nor a drag race, the S2000 is very light, hard suspension setup, racey engine and very light. Let me give you an example, the 360HP 996GT3 lapped officially 7:46 (Walter Rohrl)in Nurburgring matching the 996TT and beating the F550 and tunned 600hp 993 turbo! guess why.

Carlos from Spain.

 

If ya check out the link in my last post, it states that the vette tested is a '98 with 330 or something HP. So nope, it wasn't a Z06. But I dont think the same chasis with some engine/suspension mods will be able to take a minute off its time around a 8 min track...

 

Some of Car and Driver's numbers don't add up, and a couple of their comments don't make much sense.

Hurley does a better job from the start, to the road course entry. He enters the course at 23.6 sec versus the Z06 at 24.4 sec. That's .8 sec faster, and includes the 0-60 and quarter mile timing listed.

Hurley also has a 5.4 mph exit speed advantage out of turn 9, the last turn before the straight where they accelerate to 120 mph.

Hurley is faster to the first turn, and is faster out of turn 9, but ends up 1.9 sec slower for the whole course. What happened in the other turns? Car, or driver differences?

C&D states that the Z06's better Cd gave it the advantage accelerating at higher speeds down the last straight (to 120 mph) but both cars took 4.4 sec to go from 100-120 mph. No Cd impact there.

From turn 9 exit speed to 100 mph, both cars were basically equal in acceleration in mph/sec. No Cd impact there either.

In the 911 AuthoThority review, they say the 996TT was able to keep pace with the 911 in acceleration down the last straight because of the 15 mph headwind the 911 had to fight (it was a calm the day they tested the 996TT), but the 911 did 100-120 in 3.7 sec versus the 996TT in 4.4 sec. From turn 9 exit speed to 100 mph the 911 had no problem out accelerating the 996TT. I don't consider that "keeping pace".

 

Dock, you mean Z06 here, right, not 911? Just wanted to clarify.

I agree that there's a lot that doesn't "add up". But then, despite reading this entire thread and closely watching for new posts, I think this the entire topic is pretty simple to figure out. I wouldn't buy a Vette if it out performed the McClaren F1 and sold for $30,000, except perhaps as a track car. I just love Porsche. I have a friend who's $21,000. BMW 2002 can spank both the Vette and the 996TT hands down at a small track like Willow Springs. But I wouldn't want to take a cruise up PCH to Santa Barbara in it as much as I would my 996.

Vette - Good

996TT - Good

Now, get the one you love and admire the facets you like of the other from a distance. They're both great cars, but their typical owners are very different.

I like that Porsche raises the bar against it's own standards. I do believe they know their public...and it's probably a good bit different from Chevy's.

 

Josh, the C&D review of the AutoThority 911 has this to say; "...but as Webster pointed it's blocky bodywork into the 15-mph head wind and started climbing through its tall autobahn gearing, the race was over. (that wind probably explains why the stock 911 Turbo, tested on a calm day, kept pace with the AutoThority car after the road course.)" The comment about the race being over is aimed at the Lingenfelter Corvette, and the "keeping pace" applies to the 996TT.

It looks like C&D made the comment about the 996TT keeping pace by looking at the ET from road course exit to 120 mph (the target speed for the 996TT/Z06(stock). The only thing I can figure out is C&D looked at the ET from turn 9 exit to 120 mph. The AutoThority 911's ET was 11.0 sec, and the 996TT was 11.2 sec. This doesn't take into account the different turn 9 exit speeds though.

The AutoThority 911 accelerates from 56.3 mph (turn 9 exit speed)to 100 mph at an average of 7.71 mph/sec while the 996TT accelerates from 48.2 to 100 mph at 7.09 mph/sec. The tuned 911 was .7 sec faster from 100-120 mph.

As far as the Z06 goes, I'm like you; wouldn't own one.

 

Ahhh, it was all a conspiracy. You guys sound like Hillary Clinton. Could it have possibly been that the 996 just got beat. Naah, that's impossible.

Anybody with a s2000 that wants to race a z06 for money go to corvetteforum.com. There's lots of guys there willing to take your money.

Hey Josh, one day when your buddy eats his wheaties, tell him to try Rod Simpson (911, Chevy v8) at Willow Springs, 1:18.

 

You think checking out numbers and commentary means someone thinks there's a "conspiracy" in the works? Taking at face value the numbers C&D provided, along with their opinion about the numbers, is more the "Hillary" approach: "Don't look at the details, just trust me."

The AutoThority 911 SHOULD beat the 996TT in acceleration (headwind or not), and I think C&D's numbers show this to be true. They just don't think it's true.

Do you think C&D's results show the Z06 out accelerating the 996TT at higher speeds down the last straight?

I just don't think some of their comments are accurate.

It would have also helped it C&D provided the same "Minimum corner speed, mph/ Maximum lateral grip, g" road course numbers for the stock cars, as they did for the tuners.

 

Wow Carlos, that's a sharp tongue you have. Imagine if I was actually trying to rattle you, you might have pissed yourself.

So Rod runs 1:18 around Willow. I'm impressed. That's great. I watched Eric Messley run 1:17, 1:18 in a highly modified, 805 HP Viper, and again, that's a car I wouldn't have for my daily driver. Here's some statistics for you from the Willow Springs track records. Streetable, and obvioulsy this is a most subjective term (as is "good", "stylish", "the best", etc.), cars don't usually do 1:18 at Willow.

Most drivers on this board don't have race cars. Further, a professional driver is not necessarily a good indication of what makes a car good for the majority of members on this board.

Since my point seems to have eluded you I'll reiterate it here. I think hats-off to Chevy for making such a great performer. Great to have such powerful V8s too. I still like my 996 C2 more. And I like the 996TT more. I think they're both better (remember, this is a subjective word Carlos) cars than the Chevy. I prefer them in every way. Would I like a faster Porsche, sure. And I'll get one...the next one. Porsche measures its performance improvements based on its previous model, and they have always raised the bar accordingly. Therefore the next new Porsche will be better than the previous.

I think you also missed the point about how a cheaper car (my friends BMW) can run circles around a Z06 or a 996TT at Willow. That car was built for doing such. The 996TT was built for a whole lot more, and that's the way I like it. And that's the way most unpretentious enthuasists like it, oh, and the way Porsche can stay in business selling cars.

You can have your Vette, and maybe you should. I have the perfect car for my needs, both street and track. I too think that some "improvements" can be made to the stock Porsches, and I made a few to my own to better suit my needs. But the Porsches are, IMHO, the best - remember subjective - platform and all-round cars.

Go back and read the statistics from Willow, see how race cars do on the track, in the hands of professionals, and then talk to me about eating wheaties.

 

Couldn´t have said it better myself, Josh. But I think your wasting your time with this one, I also tried getting those points across over and over without any success.

Carlos from Spain

 

I certainly support everybody's right to drive what they choose. After all this is America. And the tt has some wonderful qualites. But you guys sound like someone talking about what a good "personality" the fat girl has. This was a performance test. Period.

The C&D article is on my lap. Th Z06 beats the tt in every aspect of the test except deceleration from inital top speed to first turn entry speed and last turn exit speed. What about that don't you understand. The vette is faster 0-60, 0-100, 1/4 mile, thru the road course, acceleration after the road course to 100, 110, 120 and decelertation from 120 to 0. Sounds like a pretty complete victory to me but then again I don't posess the deep understaning of these things that your average purist does. In comparing the stock 911 to the autothority, all of the "cospiracy" boils down one thing, 1.2 sec. slower pass on the road course for the autothority car. EVERY other acceleration number is superior. But since you guys breought it up, I do think there are some highly inflated HP numbers out ther on Porsches. George beat a 700 HP Powerhaus car with about 465 (at that time). No spray. Different horses? you bet. He also shattered a transmission gear that works in (supposed) 700 or 800 HP applications. Can you say bull****?

 

I've owned both a 996TT, and a couple of Corvettes. I'll admit, none have been the Z06, but for my point that's really irrelevant.

At the end of the day, these are two different cars focused at two different market segments. The Z06 may be faster in all aspects than Porsche, but there are compromises made to get there. For instance, both my Corvettes have been rather loud inside while driving at highway speeds. Since the Z06 has thinner glass and less insolation, I'd expect this to be worse than the coupe/convertible. The Z06 has some definite suspension upgrades that the coupe/convertible can't compete with...even with the Z51 upgrade.

Since I don't track (yet) my cars, I was looking for a good daily driver that I could take on the road for extended trips. For me, the 996 is the right car. I'm selling my Corvette this week. I've driven several different cars, and the 996 just "speaks" to me. I don't find myself looking for those extra tenths of a second going back and forth to work, but I do like the added luxury the Porsche adds over the Corvette.

That's all that's being said. Even if you take the numbers as definitive, which car is right for each driver is still subjective. And still, if there was one perfect car, wouldn't ALMS/F1/etc. be boring?

 

Hey Carlos, maybe you just didn't understand my post, but that's ok.

Just interested, does the issue of C&D you have show the 996TT at 100 mph at 82.7 sec total ET, and at 120 mph at 87.1 sec total ET? Mine does, and that's 4.4 sec to accelerate from 100-120 mph.

See if the Z06 is listed at 100 mph 82.4 sec into the run, and at 120 mph 86.8 sec ET? That's 4.4 sec too.

While it's a testament to the Z06's performance to equal the 996TT in accelaration in that specific speed range, it doesn't show that the Z06 had an "edge" or out accelerated the 996TT. That's what C&D's conclusion was though and they identify Cd as the reason.

I thought maybe C&D was talking about the Cd impact from exit speed to 100 mph, but the 996TT averages 7.0882 mph/sec and the Z06 averages 7.0526 mph/sec. Slight advantage to the 996TT, but equal in my mind. I don't see a Cd impact there either.