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I'll play a little devil's advocate here.
I Think some people are in a Porsche 911 bubble. You can't start with the price of a good example, say $30-35k and just start subtracting the work needed. Paint costs $10k, so I'll offer $20k, IMS Solution costs $4k, so I'll offer only $16k. At some level your buying the platform.
I'm in the market looking for a 16 year olds first car.
A halfway decent 2014-2016 4cyl Mazda 3 is $12-15k,
a Toyota Matrix, Corolla, Camry... all 80-100k miles are about $13-17k or more. 2015 Honda Civic $15k. A 2014 Kia Soul, with 5 different engine-exploding recalls, including bore-scoring (!!) still sells for $12-14k!!
More generally, at $16k you can start to find V8 Porsche Cayans. Something silly, like a 2005 Ford Thunderbird is $18k! A Maserati Quattroporte, and their questionable (terrible) reliability starts at $18k.
BMW Z4 $17k, a 10year old Miata is $18k.
My point is that there is a price floor given the broader market, and you're at it!
All of this is to say that it would be very surprising for a running driving 911, with decent maintenance history, an honest open enthusiast owner, in a good color, even if cosmetically rough, to be $17.5k or less. Saying that this 911 is comparable to a decent 10 Year old Camry, or an even more failure prone Kia or a Maserati, would be surprising, if not insulting. Sure, the 911 will need a lot more expensive maintenance than a Camry, but again, at some point you're buying the platform.
I would say that if he's asking $28k, he humors you to do a oil pan drop and engine scope, and you offer $17k or less... Corolla money... Well I'd be pissed. Don't waste his time.
EDIT, PS: I'm not saying that car is worth $28k. Bondo on the door is terrible and never should have been done. But if you're at the price floor for a crappy example, then you would be better off moving up off the price floor and finding a good example.
Imho, you are always better off buying a well serviced and well sorted 996 for $35k than a piece of crap for $20k. The reason is a well serviced and sorted 996 will have service records, oil changes and parts properly refreshed which will save you boat loads of money.
Sure, you can save alot of money if you are a DIY guy. But nobody needs a Porsche and they will end up costing you alot of money over time. Whether you like it or not.
The way to contain your costs are to either buy a well sorted 996 for a bit more money that has good bores, lots of service records, good oil tests, alot of oil changes, lots of water pump, AOS, coil, senser, fuel injector changes, upgraded IMSB, and alot of the above referenced stuff done, or spend alot of time looking for used parts for non-engine related parts.
There are no bargains with sports cars. But there are sports cars that are better sorted than others which may cost more up front, but substantially less over time.
I agree with @jdbornem and @GC996 , they summed it up nicely...!!
The reality is that you are paying for the "911 Platform" and all that that implies !! .....( the cost savings $$$$ is due to the inherit risks, so get used to it)
The Old saying " buy the newest example you can afford " still holds true , so that means the best/newest example you can find/afford ...
The only real "bargain " is that if you find a really low mileage car that is in pristine condition with a "precieved catastrofic fault " that was miss-diagnosed . ( like an intermix that is only oil in coolant, and happened recently) ...that the repair could be managed for $5K ...but the owner just wanted to be "done with the car"...That's the only way I know of to get a real "bargain" on the 996
Alright gents, I really took what you all said in mind as I went a continued my search. I had looked at a few more 996s in person (had to travel like that vert in wichita), but after my 5 ish months of looking for these cars, the red 996 is the winner! Now, know that I hear what you all are saying about the cars and the price. The 18k was too low of and offer and I thought I would see what you all thought (I thought it was silly), but I am not about to over pay for something that is not worth it either. I like the seller and would not offer him something that low. That's just rude man. This number is simply something the dude at the "exotic shop" said and I took it to heart, until I realized that he is also in a bubble as he deals with 1,000,000 dollar cars all around him. Also, lets just say that the job I got fresh out of school with a computer electrical engineering degree is very very good to me along with, being single, and living in a paid off little home I bought from the family after grandma's passing makes this a non issue. I am kinda an oddball at 24 in this day in age. But regardless, I am never comfortable throwing my money down a drain.... Unless its a 911!!! I am ok with this haha. I am a serious DIY-er and have built several cars all the way down to doing full on engine rebuilds, pulls, etc. I am not a novice by any means. I could have been a mechanic and not an engineer.
Sure it has the miles, and the paint issues, but like you all said, I am buying the platform. Unsurprisingly, the owner of the guards red 996 shown above is a mechanical engineer. He got the car from the 2nd owner (3rd if you count dealerships) and has had it for 90k miles of driving, 138k miles total. 90k are 20 mile highway drives to and from work in oklahoma. Id take that over a 60k car driven in LA all its life TBH (more like IMHO but I digress, I gotta convince myself somehow right?). It has passed every mechanical test and has been very very well taken care of by the previous owner. The bores have been scoped within the last few months and after really talking to the owner and of course, bringing my highly skeptical father with me, the owner is a very cool guy and very professional. In short, I and my father trust him enough to take his word. I know where he lives too hahahah! Jk jk but yes, I am going through with the deal. He wants to keep in touch and go one some cruises. Yes lord (anderson paak quote). So yea, about the price, lets say I got it for a good price that many would jump on, but she needs work/TLC. The price is right under what ssherman68 said that "he thought it was worth". The owner is a perfectionist and it shows. He recently got a 997 and has 7 cars total in suburbia oklahoma so the 996 is taking up space. Perfect for me IMHO. I, at the worst case scenario, will have the platform with zero rust and no major crashes! I am really excited.
She a 2001 guards red carrera with PSM and the shortest option list ive ever seen on one of these cars! The list is below in more detail plus an odd question about the 438 option (comfort seat right). I am a bit confused by 438 comfort seat right being the only option and there being no 437 comfort seat left option?! They both are fully mechanical chairs! I wanted that, but just for the geek in me want to know about the option sheet. All I want is a near-zero optioned 996 with a sun roof and PSM and I think I just got that. Below are some additional photos. She is dry as a bone, zero leak car, and everything works near-perfect, all needed replacements have been done, some extra parts will be thrown in (variocam pads, clutch master cylinders, etc.), and yea... The sunroof has not been opened in years, only tilted open, not open-opened in years, so I am going to have to be SERIOUSLY careful getting her open. I am a big sunroof guy (I open mine 1/2 the days I drive it, close it at every damn gas station or place I park at, and want to get that working, but I will figure that out later. The last thing I want to do is have to do some crazy roof removal to get a damn sunroof open... yikes.
The car came with m030 suspension and I love it. He also replaced everything with some nice ploy bushings (no squeaks or sounds... feels like the other 996s with rubber suspension Ive driven, so good but may bad??), added adjustable swaybars, and even a 1/2 to 1 ish quart extra deep sump with upgraded baffles for cornering... When I asked about "is this a deep sump" he said "Yes it is!! If you add swaybars, you will turn harder, then from a mechanic/engineer standpoint, the engine will be laterally G-'d even more, so for safety, I added this sump and baffles to keep it from oil starving!" Nice!!! He "showed me what it could do in a turn" on a highway clover interchange and even I was a bit shocked on how well and flat and quickly it turned! Impressive. It would give a brand new 2024 miata a run for its money in the turns! Damn son. He also replaced the factory m030 shocks with bilsteins factory m030 replacements. There are 3 mods on this car, deep sump, sway bars, and... I forget.... Good mods regardless and I would not upgrade much beyond this. Even little things like the shifter links popping out and the annoying auto switching exhaust have been fixed. He rebuilt the shifter linkage too. All these things and more (IMS, RMS, etc.) have all been serviced. I am happy with this purchase thus far, but will be taking it into my shop next week, after the holiday! I plan to turn the exhaust back to "quiet mode" for now as his "fix" was to set the switchable exhaust to default to "loud" as he simply un-hooked the vacuum line that ran to it. I plan to use some form of solinoid/transistor to make a button next to the radio control the exhaust for a controlled switchable exhaust!!!! How fun
Even things like the 2x radiators have been replaced recently and their hoses. Even the hoses above the transmission have been replaced in the last 3 years! Great. Now there is a mechanical issue... There is a slow start issue. Randomly, the starter turns slower than expected. The starter is original. He has tried various batteries and they are not the cause, but it is something that needs to be tracked. She has stranded the owner only 1 time when the alternator said bye bye! This car has been their daily driver for that last 10-11 years! I suspect until I track this down, It will keep doing this, but the problem has never stranded the owner before... We will get to that when we get to that. The plan is to honestly keep an eye on the oil, doing changes 2x a year, and send the oil in for analysis. Once I see the bore scoring going, I plan to do a full engine refresh and drop in mezger engine style aluminum cylinders! I am excited to daily her for as long as I can I am sure there are more problems, but we will get there when we get there. For now, I got the platform and fell in love with the car. I am just happy that the deal was sealed at a good price and the car is a driver! EXACTLY what I was looking for. Blessed. Also, car has 0 accidents (tho someone bashed the door at one point and *tried* to DIY it... 10+ years later, the bondo cracked and is rearing its ugly head. I like a bit of patina. Proof she's lived lol. Makes me less afraid to scratch it!
Here's my current list of things to do:
- Brand new 225/40r18s front and 265/35/r18s in the rear. ***Tire note
- Get an Alignment
- Restore the paint ***Paint note
- Open the sunroof
- Track the slow start issue
- Inspect everything
- Oh, fix the stick reverse light sensor (reverse lights on while driving in vid from dad)
- REMOVE THE ALUMINUM and get the factory black pieces. Looks kinda cheap IMHO. I might keep the console though (heck, anyone want to trade?!)
- Dash cam (can and will be used against you in court... I may be like "what dash cam''?)
- Radar detector
- GT3 console delete... or not because apple car play/android auto double din touch screen with voice control (or just PCCM+) sounds really damn nice. If I do that, there's no room for the climate control so idk. Some 3d printed gt3 console deletes I have seen actually have an (ugly) din for the climate control.... Also, I would love to track a BOSE speaker interior and just swap it.... Ah, I love a new car so much :''")
- probably 10x + other things waiting in the shadows -____- we have a toyota so I am ok whatever happens (or so I tell myself!!!)
- tell my self no matter what I do, the risk with these cars will never be zero. I did my due diligence, and am ready to drive!
***Tire note - This is a 996.1 so 7.5'' front and 10'' wheels for 18'' inch wheels, right? I need to see for myself once its in my shop. But assuming this is so, I would like to go a bit wider, but I dont think I need to. I want to get the PSM happy so I do not want to go anything beyond stock. Stock rocks because that's how the engineers at Stuttgart designed it! Closer to stock the better
***Paint note - Restore via simple compound on the non-clear coat ruined areas and wetsand and respray the parts eaten thru (see below photos on roof). The door will have to wait until I track down a new door and guards red paint (rare I hear...)
Also below are some photos of the car and my question about the options list... Here is what I have "deciphered"
c02 - cats (exhaust usa)
030 - M030 suspension (yess!!! he replaced all the the suspension and it feels great! My inner sim racer / track goer is happy!)
236 - Internal production code related to tires
413 - 18" Turbo look wheels (yummy, my fav wheels and size on these cars! yasss)
438 - Comfort seat right (???? 437 is the left seat but its not on the options list. The seats are all mechanical, no electronics (a plus imho), but I am wondering about this... I assume they just didn't want to take the space to say L and R seats on the sticker?
446 - Wheel caps with colored Porsche crest (he even replaced these too with new units!)
476 - PSM Porsche Stability Management (thank goodness. I want this... I am not a track god and even if I was.... Sleepy on the way to work in the rain, I need this. I plan to "restore" the PSM as much as I can)
And thats the entire list! This is the smallest one I have seen online thus far online! I am happy about this!!!! This is just like how my grandfather spec'd his 1994 bmw e36 when he bought it brand new. 4cyl, base model, nothing except sunroof was optioned out! He also owned a gull wing back when he was my age... He was a mechanical engineer as well (engineers on both side of the fam. Fun stuff!).
I am finally apart of the 911 club. It feels so odd to be here, but I have been working hard to get here and all the saving is paying off. Life is good gents! I can't wait to drive her to work once I get her sorted and cleaned up again! I am happy I park in the closed parking garage (rare for oklahoma but I do work in the city so yea), and that will keep the paint from "frying" again!
Future 996 owner ----> Current 996 owner
Thanks everyone, sorry for the essays! I will bring some technical essays some fine day after tracking who knows what issue or fixing the car. I plan to document the car on this forum! So now I can offically say /end once I reply to yall!
Congrats. Regarding slow start issue; if it is a 6 speed manual I have found with mine that if the clutch is not absolutely plastered to the floor it sounds like a half dead battery. Jam the clutch into the floorboard and fires up just fine. Just FYI.
And bmchan, I hear ya, but also think there's no harm. TLDR, I got the car
I know you're (anyone replying) is as bad as me though, we should be chillin with the family watching the fireworks and so forth (those in USA ofc) and not on the forum !
california996c4 - I will have to try this! I always do that, but the slow start was when I started it thru the window from outside, so yea
Congrats Bloku. Persistence is everything in life. Need a day to get thru 4th of July festivities to study your writeup. But welcome to the 996 ownership club! Best damn club on earth!
Welcome to the club! You are now on the slippery slope like the rest of us... do this, do that, maybe this, but also while I'm in there... Sounds like a great starting point. Drive and smile
Oh, and first thing, just change the starter. It's old and will die in the next year or two anyway. Check the Y cable 'while you're in there'.And never worry about it again. Good luck!!
Congrats. Regarding slow start issue; if it is a 6 speed manual I have found with mine that if the clutch is not absolutely plastered to the floor it sounds like a half dead battery. Jam the clutch into the floorboard and fires up just fine. Just FYI.
That puts high loads into the clutch release bearing and worse to the Thrust bearing at the crank shaft. It accelerates wear of that Thrust bearing.
I start every manual transmission car (without a clutch switch) out of gear, foot on brake, foot off the clutch.
Having typed the above I understand US vehicles with MT probably all have a clutch switch from a certain year of manufacture as it became mandatory...
dporto, I already replaced the brake light switch so I know right where the clutch lockout switch is, just attached the two wires together and ditch the switch? I was worried might cause a warning light or code? Thanks!
06-22-2024, 11:42 AM
