Recommend IMS bearing installer in St. Louis / Paducah / Cape Girardeau area?
03-04-2020, 03:24 PM
#46
Rennlist Member
I'm big into knowing the "why" for things. In the absence of an explanation, yes, I wonder if the time-based replacement interval doesn't exist to try to direct people towards the IMS solution. If someone's choices are to spend $3500 once, or to spend $2500 every five years, then it would be foolish to go with the latter option unless you're planning to part with the car in the near future. But if the choices are to spend $3500 once, or to spend $2500 every 15 years (75K-mile maintenance interval divided by 5K miles per year = 15 years), then it's a lot easier to think "I'll let Future Me worry about spending another $2500 and save the $1000 now". It's very likely that I'll have my 911 for at least 5 years. As for keeping it for 15 years, that's hard to say.
Wouldn't it be hilarious if I talked myself into the IMS solution and then you were like "screw that FleshRocket guy, I'm not selling one to him"? LOL
That would be great. Thanks!
Wouldn't it be hilarious if I talked myself into the IMS solution and then you were like "screw that FleshRocket guy, I'm not selling one to him"? LOL
That would be great. Thanks!
03-04-2020, 03:42 PM
#47
Rennlist Member
FR - you need to do some reading, and stop expecting everyone to just answer your (-rudimentary that have been answered here over 100 times already) questions. The change interval for the ball or roller bearings is 6 years or 75k miles - whichever comes first. The bearing degrades regardless of the mileage put on it - in other words if the mostly sits in the garage and only gets driven 6k miles in 6 years - it still needs a new IMSB... Seriously, you need to start doing some real research if you expect to start dumping money into one of these cars - otherwise you're going to waste an awful lot of cash.
03-04-2020, 03:51 PM
#48
Rennlist Member
I'm not keen on how EPS puts a bearing in and forgoes any method of bearing retention with a one size fits all kit. Plus coming from a company that thinks this is a good idea, anything is suspect:
03-04-2020, 04:00 PM
#49
Former Vendor
Wouldn't it be hilarious if I talked myself into the IMS solution and then you were like "screw that FleshRocket guy, I'm not selling one to him"? LOL
The way I look at it, I didn't lose 70K, I saved my business.
You missed an important fact, Jake does not sell IMS bearings!
03-04-2020, 04:02 PM
#50
Rennlist Member
I'm eyeing either the:
MB Motorsports roller bearing - $300, http://mbmotorsportsrepair.com/parts-for-sale.html or the
EPS roller bearing - $579 https://www.europeanpartssolution.co...ng-upgrade-kit
As far as I can tell, the MBM and EPS bearings are identical, except that the EPS bearing comes with an oil pump drive shaft that has a slot in it to force oil through the IMS, basically forcing oil to the IMS bearing. EPS admits that forcing oil to the IMSB is not a necessity, but is provided because "the internet" says it should. As the LNE bearing also omits forcing oil to the IMSB, I'm inclined believe that forced oiling the IMSB is not necessary. So at that point, if the MBM bearing is comparable to the EPS bearing but is half the price, that seems like the way to go.
There's also:
LN Engineering roller bearing - $749 - https://lnengineering.com/products/i...ofit-kits.html
The main thing that has turned me off about LN Engineering's replacement bearings is that they've got a time-based replacement interval. The roller bearing is listed as 4 years and the ball bearing is listed as 5 years. I get that the original Porsche bearing should have had a time-base maintenance interval because eventually the seal on the bearing is going to fail and let out the grease inside, resulting in insufficient lubrication, hence the primary cause of the bearing failures. But the aftermarket roller bearings (MB, EPS, and LN) are all exposed to engine oil, and there are no apparent rubber / plastic parts to get brittle. EPS specifically markets its roller bearing as being "lifetime", so why does LN list a 4-year service interval for its roller bearing?
If it was just a mileage-based interval for LN's bearing, I could almost stomach that. I'm going to put at most 5K miles per year on my 911, so it would take me at least 10 years to rack up the 50K miles that LN says its roller bearing should be replaced at. But if that same bearing becomes a ticking time bomb at the 4-year mark, when I've maybe only put 20K miles on my 911, that's just not acceptable.
So, assuming that everyone's telling the truth and representing their products accurately, it would be foolish to go with an option that is a) more expensive up front and b) will need to be replaced, at significant parts and labor cost, in 4-5 years.
Honestly, this whole process is going to make my head explode. I wish that the LNE IMS solution was ~$1K.. I could justify spending that amount for the peace of mind. But $1849 feels to me like it's a $1K kit with an $849 "peace of mind" surcharge. The kit includes the bearing ($849ish based on what LNE charges for its ball or roller bearings), the spin-on oil filter adapter ($150ish), a braided steel line ($50ish) and an oil filter ($12). So.. ~$1062. Not $1849. But obviously LNE can charge whatever it wants, and people either pay it or they don't. Sigh.
I feel like if LNE's pricing was more like:
--40K-mile roller bearing - $500
--50K-mile ball bearing - $700
--IMS solution - $1000
Then the competitors / knockoffs would be forced out of the market (because who wouldn't pick the well-known name-brand when it doesn't cost a whole lot more than the other options), and a lot more IMS solutions would be sold.
MB Motorsports roller bearing - $300, http://mbmotorsportsrepair.com/parts-for-sale.html or the
EPS roller bearing - $579 https://www.europeanpartssolution.co...ng-upgrade-kit
As far as I can tell, the MBM and EPS bearings are identical, except that the EPS bearing comes with an oil pump drive shaft that has a slot in it to force oil through the IMS, basically forcing oil to the IMS bearing. EPS admits that forcing oil to the IMSB is not a necessity, but is provided because "the internet" says it should. As the LNE bearing also omits forcing oil to the IMSB, I'm inclined believe that forced oiling the IMSB is not necessary. So at that point, if the MBM bearing is comparable to the EPS bearing but is half the price, that seems like the way to go.
There's also:
LN Engineering roller bearing - $749 - https://lnengineering.com/products/i...ofit-kits.html
The main thing that has turned me off about LN Engineering's replacement bearings is that they've got a time-based replacement interval. The roller bearing is listed as 4 years and the ball bearing is listed as 5 years. I get that the original Porsche bearing should have had a time-base maintenance interval because eventually the seal on the bearing is going to fail and let out the grease inside, resulting in insufficient lubrication, hence the primary cause of the bearing failures. But the aftermarket roller bearings (MB, EPS, and LN) are all exposed to engine oil, and there are no apparent rubber / plastic parts to get brittle. EPS specifically markets its roller bearing as being "lifetime", so why does LN list a 4-year service interval for its roller bearing?
If it was just a mileage-based interval for LN's bearing, I could almost stomach that. I'm going to put at most 5K miles per year on my 911, so it would take me at least 10 years to rack up the 50K miles that LN says its roller bearing should be replaced at. But if that same bearing becomes a ticking time bomb at the 4-year mark, when I've maybe only put 20K miles on my 911, that's just not acceptable.
So, assuming that everyone's telling the truth and representing their products accurately, it would be foolish to go with an option that is a) more expensive up front and b) will need to be replaced, at significant parts and labor cost, in 4-5 years.
Honestly, this whole process is going to make my head explode. I wish that the LNE IMS solution was ~$1K.. I could justify spending that amount for the peace of mind. But $1849 feels to me like it's a $1K kit with an $849 "peace of mind" surcharge. The kit includes the bearing ($849ish based on what LNE charges for its ball or roller bearings), the spin-on oil filter adapter ($150ish), a braided steel line ($50ish) and an oil filter ($12). So.. ~$1062. Not $1849. But obviously LNE can charge whatever it wants, and people either pay it or they don't. Sigh.
I feel like if LNE's pricing was more like:
--40K-mile roller bearing - $500
--50K-mile ball bearing - $700
--IMS solution - $1000
Then the competitors / knockoffs would be forced out of the market (because who wouldn't pick the well-known name-brand when it doesn't cost a whole lot more than the other options), and a lot more IMS solutions would be sold.
None of the competitors kits have been out long enough to see if they stand the test of time, where ours have been in service since 2008. The competition also make fraudulent claims and can't even get their story straight when it comes to warranty length or actual load ratings, which we share outright, including load ratings for other bearing kits.
The IMS Solution is the most permanent one, backdating the engine to use a pressure fed plain bearing, just like an aircooled 911 engine. It's a proven design. But yes, it's expensive. But you are buying from a reputable company that supports our Porsche community and has been active on this and many other Porsche groups since before the company was originally founded. That is because I care.
It's a free country and you are free to choose whichever product you feel best suits your needs.
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03-04-2020, 04:03 PM
#51
Rennlist Member
You are probably better off doing nothing than trying to do it yourself or save money by going with a sub-par brand. Not saying the LN is the only way to go, but it’s proven and a no-brainer, IMO. Improperly installed IMSBs by mechanics have caused engines to fail down the road, and these are real mechanics too, not DIY’ers, maybe not true Porsche specialists. Even if they are Porsche specialists, are they M96 specialists? Makes a difference. I wouldn’t want any air-cooled engine expert digging around inside my M96...
That said, did you call Isringhausen Imports in Springfield yet? Do they do IMSB installs?
The money you spend on an LN solution could be recaptured if sold down the road. Not all of it, but some of it.
That said, did you call Isringhausen Imports in Springfield yet? Do they do IMSB installs?
The money you spend on an LN solution could be recaptured if sold down the road. Not all of it, but some of it.
03-04-2020, 04:14 PM
#52
I have a newly-acquired '02 911 and need to get the IMS bearing replaced so I can sleep at night, but I live in southern Illinois, which is a performance vehicle wasteland, so there aren't any shops I can trust to do the bearing replacement. St. Louis is the closest major metropolitan area (~100 miles), and Paducah, KY (60 miles) and Cape Girardeau, MO (50 miles) are also big enough that they may have shops that are adept at IMS-bearing-replacement. I've been Googling and calling, but so far none of them have given me a real warm and fuzzy feeling. Those of you who are in my vicinity, what shops do you have experience with that you can recommend? (Sure hope there's not some sticky about this that I missed.. I searched, I swear!)
If your able to do the work yourself that will sure save a bunch of labor costs. I'd like to do work myself, but I just don't have the time or energy to mess with it. I'd encourage you to talk to ET Tuning and Reid Vann. They both seem like decent people to work with. I'm happy they are both in my area.
I saw your post about the IMS being the one thing that can catastrophically fail your engine. Just wait until you start reading more about bore scoring! Actually, don't read about it, you'll never sleep again! lol
Good luck with your car! they sure are a lot of fun! i had a blast cruising some back roads yesterday afternoon! bye bye salty roads!!
03-04-2020, 04:16 PM
#53
Rennlist Member
Not at all--anyone who's in business is in business to make money. I'd much rather that LNE (or any company selling a good product) make a profit and continue to stay in business. I just want to make sure I'm not being taken advantage of, a la the pharmaceutical industry. (An extreme example, of course, but we've all heard about medicines that cost $10 overseas but are thousands of dollars in the US because.. that's why the pharmaceutical companies can get away with charging.)
To be fair, if I do use one of your competitors' bearings, and it fails on me, I'll post about it. All of the I-told-you-so-ers can flame me, and I'd deserve it, but I'd want to help steer others away from a potentially problematic product. And then I'd be ponying up for a $15K engine rebuild. Which would suck, but, so be it.
If you wouldn't mind, please provide an explanation for the time-based maintenance interval for the LNE bearings--what in the bearings degrades over time, rather than mileage, necessitating replacement on a 4-year or 5-year schedule?
To be fair, if I do use one of your competitors' bearings, and it fails on me, I'll post about it. All of the I-told-you-so-ers can flame me, and I'd deserve it, but I'd want to help steer others away from a potentially problematic product. And then I'd be ponying up for a $15K engine rebuild. Which would suck, but, so be it.
If you wouldn't mind, please provide an explanation for the time-based maintenance interval for the LNE bearings--what in the bearings degrades over time, rather than mileage, necessitating replacement on a 4-year or 5-year schedule?
For the dual row bearing, the factory reported a 1% failure rate, again under warranty.
We don't want any failures, so that's where we came up with a 6 year or 75k interval for our dual row bearings used in the Classic Dual Row and Single Row Pro IMS Retrofit kits. We don't have a crystal ball, but we feel confident (and time has proven) with our recommended service interval a customer can be sure that their bearing is sound.
We also emphasize time as some of the worse failures we've seen is from cars that sit and don't get driven. Combustion byproducts and moisture in the crankcase create acids that cause corrosive wear and we've seen pitting in the races on low mileage IMS bearings. Even if the engine is not running, it's exposed to a continuous load as well as contaminants in the crankcase - it's in service 24/7/365.
Likewise, that's why we tell people to change water pumps every 4-5 years or at most 60,000 miles. If they fail, the heads crack and the engine overheats, possibly even causing a cylinder failure. The water pump too is in service 24/7/365.
Many can afford to buy a Porsche, but being able to afford to own one is a different story.
03-04-2020, 04:21 PM
#54
Rennlist Member
I'm in the St. Louis area and just had my IMS done a few months ago. ET Tuning and Reid Vann are both St. Louis shops that do IMS work. It was basically a toss up for me on which shop to go to. I talked to both, and they both had good reviews. I did the retrofit. The IMS Solution was $1,000 more. Had I not just paid for the car, paid those silly BaT fees(lol), and the worst part(taxes) I would have done the IMS Solution. My logic for the retrofit was i knew it would at least be good for a few years. At that point I wasn't even sure if i would still want the car after a few years. If I do end up keeping it for longer than that, I'll probably upgrade to the IMS Solution when it needs some major service. I think I heard that LN may give you some type of "credit" if you upgrade from retrofit to solution? Don't quote me, i may be wrong on that. When i talked to the shops about doing something other than LN, they did not recommend it. That was fine with me. LN seems to be solid, and i didn't want to skimp on my car.
If your able to do the work yourself that will sure save a bunch of labor costs. I'd like to do work myself, but I just don't have the time or energy to mess with it. I'd encourage you to talk to ET Tuning and Reid Vann. They both seem like decent people to work with. I'm happy they are both in my area.
I saw your post about the IMS being the one thing that can catastrophically fail your engine. Just wait until you start reading more about bore scoring! Actually, don't read about it, you'll never sleep again! lol
Good luck with your car! they sure are a lot of fun! i had a blast cruising some back roads yesterday afternoon! bye bye salty roads!!
If your able to do the work yourself that will sure save a bunch of labor costs. I'd like to do work myself, but I just don't have the time or energy to mess with it. I'd encourage you to talk to ET Tuning and Reid Vann. They both seem like decent people to work with. I'm happy they are both in my area.
I saw your post about the IMS being the one thing that can catastrophically fail your engine. Just wait until you start reading more about bore scoring! Actually, don't read about it, you'll never sleep again! lol
Good luck with your car! they sure are a lot of fun! i had a blast cruising some back roads yesterday afternoon! bye bye salty roads!!
http://imsrebates.com/
In essence, we're discounting the bearing to cost as a repeat customer. What people don't understand is that we sell our products to all the Porsche parts wholesalers in the US (and overseas) and they won't touch any part like this for at least 40%. In many cases the shop putting the part in is making as much as we make. The wholesaler does the marketing and distribution to the shops, so there is an added layer of cost on every part sold.
If we were running this business out of my parent's garage or basement and didn't have to offer employees health insurance, retirement, and other benefits, we could sell cheap like some of the other fly by nights selling IMS kits on eBay. When you are purchasing from LN you are helping to keep 12 employed here in the United States and you are buying products made right here in IL.
03-04-2020, 04:23 PM
#55
Rennlist Member
03-04-2020, 04:30 PM
#56
Rennlist Member
I'm in the St. Louis area and just had my IMS done a few months ago. ET Tuning and Reid Vann are both St. Louis shops that do IMS work. It was basically a toss up for me on which shop to go to. I talked to both, and they both had good reviews. I did the retrofit. The IMS Solution was $1,000 more. Had I not just paid for the car, paid those silly BaT fees(lol), and the worst part(taxes) I would have done the IMS Solution. My logic for the retrofit was i knew it would at least be good for a few years. At that point I wasn't even sure if i would still want the car after a few years. If I do end up keeping it for longer than that, I'll probably upgrade to the IMS Solution when it needs some major service. I think I heard that LN may give you some type of "credit" if you upgrade from retrofit to solution? Don't quote me, i may be wrong on that. When i talked to the shops about doing something other than LN, they did not recommend it. That was fine with me. LN seems to be solid, and i didn't want to skimp on my car.
If your able to do the work yourself that will sure save a bunch of labor costs. I'd like to do work myself, but I just don't have the time or energy to mess with it. I'd encourage you to talk to ET Tuning and Reid Vann. They both seem like decent people to work with. I'm happy they are both in my area.
I saw your post about the IMS being the one thing that can catastrophically fail your engine. Just wait until you start reading more about bore scoring! Actually, don't read about it, you'll never sleep again! lol
Good luck with your car! they sure are a lot of fun! i had a blast cruising some back roads yesterday afternoon! bye bye salty roads!!
If your able to do the work yourself that will sure save a bunch of labor costs. I'd like to do work myself, but I just don't have the time or energy to mess with it. I'd encourage you to talk to ET Tuning and Reid Vann. They both seem like decent people to work with. I'm happy they are both in my area.
I saw your post about the IMS being the one thing that can catastrophically fail your engine. Just wait until you start reading more about bore scoring! Actually, don't read about it, you'll never sleep again! lol
Good luck with your car! they sure are a lot of fun! i had a blast cruising some back roads yesterday afternoon! bye bye salty roads!!
03-04-2020, 04:41 PM
#57
Correct. We do offer a trade up rebate if you are servicing your existing IMS Retrofit when it comes up for servicing:
http://imsrebates.com/
In essence, we're discounting the bearing to cost as a repeat customer. What people don't understand is that we sell our products to all the Porsche parts wholesalers in the US (and overseas) and they won't touch any part like this for at least 40%. In many cases the shop putting the part in is making as much as we make. The wholesaler does the marketing and distribution to the shops, so there is an added layer of cost on every part sold.
If we were running this business out of my parent's garage or basement and didn't have to offer employees health insurance, retirement, and other benefits, we could sell cheap like some of the other fly by nights selling IMS kits on eBay. When you are purchasing from LN you are helping to keep 12 employed here in the United States and you are buying products made right here in IL.
http://imsrebates.com/
In essence, we're discounting the bearing to cost as a repeat customer. What people don't understand is that we sell our products to all the Porsche parts wholesalers in the US (and overseas) and they won't touch any part like this for at least 40%. In many cases the shop putting the part in is making as much as we make. The wholesaler does the marketing and distribution to the shops, so there is an added layer of cost on every part sold.
If we were running this business out of my parent's garage or basement and didn't have to offer employees health insurance, retirement, and other benefits, we could sell cheap like some of the other fly by nights selling IMS kits on eBay. When you are purchasing from LN you are helping to keep 12 employed here in the United States and you are buying products made right here in IL.
I try to look at things through this view now.... When you buy "something" cheap or less expensive, many times you will end up buying the more expensive version because the cheaper version was not what you expected, or didn't perform how you wanted it to. In the end, you have bought the cheaper version, and the more expensive version. You've now spent more than if you would have just bought the better one to begin with...
03-04-2020, 04:44 PM
#58
Rennlist Member
Honestly, after sleeping on it, I think I will do it myself. After reading this thread about a guy DIYing the IMS bearing on a Boxster (he used the EPS bearing, back in 2016), I feel a lot better about it being within my skill level to perform myself. https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/fo.../120457/page1/
On the estimate I got, there is about $2K of labor and parts markup, and if this is something I can get done taking a couple days off work (which costs me nothing), then I might as well.
On the estimate I got, there is about $2K of labor and parts markup, and if this is something I can get done taking a couple days off work (which costs me nothing), then I might as well.
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03-04-2020, 05:44 PM
#59
Former Vendor
When you are purchasing from LN you are helping to keep 12 employed here in the United States and you are buying products made right here in IL.
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Optionman1 (03-04-2020)
03-04-2020, 06:06 PM
#60
Rennlist Member
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