Bore Scoring
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 8,050
Likes: 819
From: Kauai
I read these posts with interest, this type of failure is an car owner's worst nightmare, if the engine fails you, either fix it (and you may never recoup that repair bill) or sell it as a roller (and lose a large chunk of the value of the car).
In watching an unrelated video the other day, this subject was discussed over another manufacturer using the same bore lining process, this time it manifested as ridges/waves formed on the cylinder walls. The tech mentioned that cars that experience cold starts in areas where the winters are pronounced, and their maintenance schedules, are failure factors. Maybe external engine oil heaters/warmers would be a good idea or climate controlled garages. Certainly not easy for everyone to apply these prevention methods.
One would think that Porsche engineers would address this issue and eliminate it, or do they just accept the failure rate and these owners are SOL.
As I live in Florida, real cold isn't an issue, but I still cringe when I start my car and wonder why Porsche builds in a high idle rate at the worst possible time for engine wear, it soon settles down to normal, but still. It probably has to do with the emissions control.
In watching an unrelated video the other day, this subject was discussed over another manufacturer using the same bore lining process, this time it manifested as ridges/waves formed on the cylinder walls. The tech mentioned that cars that experience cold starts in areas where the winters are pronounced, and their maintenance schedules, are failure factors. Maybe external engine oil heaters/warmers would be a good idea or climate controlled garages. Certainly not easy for everyone to apply these prevention methods.
One would think that Porsche engineers would address this issue and eliminate it, or do they just accept the failure rate and these owners are SOL.
As I live in Florida, real cold isn't an issue, but I still cringe when I start my car and wonder why Porsche builds in a high idle rate at the worst possible time for engine wear, it soon settles down to normal, but still. It probably has to do with the emissions control.
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 8,050
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From: Kauai
Just seems "new" to me...
Every engine/transmission has it's problems....
The first I remember was back in the 70's with the BMW 2800 engines, Bavaria/3.0's)..they had an overheating problem (solved by having a larger/ more core radiator made) , and a cam problem on one of the cylinders....
Next I remember the early 911's had to have Hydraulic oil lines for the lifters added and a "pop off valve"for backfires
As far as transmissions go...THEY seem to be much improved and "bulletproof"
Now its IMS and Bore Scoring...whats next?
Every engine/transmission has it's problems....
The first I remember was back in the 70's with the BMW 2800 engines, Bavaria/3.0's)..they had an overheating problem (solved by having a larger/ more core radiator made) , and a cam problem on one of the cylinders....
Next I remember the early 911's had to have Hydraulic oil lines for the lifters added and a "pop off valve"for backfires
As far as transmissions go...THEY seem to be much improved and "bulletproof"
Now its IMS and Bore Scoring...whats next?
Now? Dak this has been going on for 18+ years...Where've you been?
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,340
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From: No. Ky.
Fast Idle
"wonder why Porsche builds in a high idle rate at the worst possible time for engine wear, it soon settles down to normal, but still. It probably has to do with the emissions control."
I does, just as any Bosch Motronic controlled engine. It's the idling time after it settles out that is worse for wear. imo
I does, just as any Bosch Motronic controlled engine. It's the idling time after it settles out that is worse for wear. imo
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,159
Likes: 157
From: A twisty backroad in PA
Sorry to hear about your engine issues. It's unfortunate when an extremely low probability event happens to you but that does not change the fact that it is an extremely low probability event.
There are plenty of ways a business can profit indirectly from an issue. For example, a business could seize on an issue and "hype" (i.e., make the issue seem more common than it really is) the issue in its marketing campaign to garner more attention for the business and its services. It's a bonus when the "hyping" of the issue serves to further disparage a product (in this case an engine) in which you happen to offer a modified improved solution to the product.
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 3,167
Likes: 888
From: Flyover Country
Sorry to hear about your engine issues. It's unfortunate when an extremely low probability event happens to you but that does not change the fact that it is an extremely low probability event.
There are plenty of ways a business can profit indirectly from an issue. For example, a business could seize on an issue and "hype" (i.e., make the issue seem more common than it really is) the issue in its marketing campaign to garner more attention for the business and its services. It's a bonus when the "hyping" of the issue serves to further disparage a product (in this case an engine) in which you happen to offer a modified improved solution to the product.
There are plenty of ways a business can profit indirectly from an issue. For example, a business could seize on an issue and "hype" (i.e., make the issue seem more common than it really is) the issue in its marketing campaign to garner more attention for the business and its services. It's a bonus when the "hyping" of the issue serves to further disparage a product (in this case an engine) in which you happen to offer a modified improved solution to the product.
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 1,968
Likes: 228
At the time of this thread, most of our 996 cars are at least 15 years old and pushing 100K miles or more. I feel pretty strongly that if you bore scoped bank#2 on 100 cars from owner's here on Rennlist, you'd find that most have some level of cylinder bore scoring and at least a quarter of those car would have scoring severe enough to warrant intervention.
What are my odds?
Maybe I should spit in one hand and wish in the other and see which one fills up first?
Former Vendor
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,968
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From: Cleveland Georgia
Maybe the vendor haters that say that we are taking advantage of the scenario should focus on the fact that we have foresight, and forethought to see these issues coming. We invested time, and money to ensure that we would have a proven solution to the problem waiting, for when the issues started to occur.
This is exactly what happened. Instead of people hating that we'd created a solution, we used to be laughed at for "wasting our time with those motors". This happened to me for years in the early days, so its quite comical to see where things ended up.
I can't tell you how many times I've had people on this forum not believe "the hype" or not like what I say, and give me hell about it, only to turn around and need me to help them. One poster here, Pete Passon (sneaky Pete) fit the bill perfectly. He even came clean with me on the phone when he called after his failure and said "I have to tell you, I am sneaky Pete from Rennlist, I hope after you learn this that you will still work with me". I told him that it was no problem, and things went on to the point where I didn't just build one engine for him, but two engines for him.
My videos and info on this topic were primarily done to cut down on the same old messages coming through our system. The same symptoms, the same issues, and etc slow us down. Now, after the video series on bore scoring we don't get those questions.Instead, we end up with "My car had some symptoms of bore scoring, and I found your videos on youtube. You described my symptoms verbatim, and I used your video to bore scope my own engine, and diagnose it at home. Thank you for helping me understand this failure"
99% of those never lead to a sale for us. We build engines for the 1% who love their car enough. The other 99% benefit from the videos, that save them money on misdiagnoses, and spending thousands of dollars replacing AOS units, and chasing down phantom issues for an engine that "runs fine, but just burns oil".
This is exactly what happened. Instead of people hating that we'd created a solution, we used to be laughed at for "wasting our time with those motors". This happened to me for years in the early days, so its quite comical to see where things ended up.
I can't tell you how many times I've had people on this forum not believe "the hype" or not like what I say, and give me hell about it, only to turn around and need me to help them. One poster here, Pete Passon (sneaky Pete) fit the bill perfectly. He even came clean with me on the phone when he called after his failure and said "I have to tell you, I am sneaky Pete from Rennlist, I hope after you learn this that you will still work with me". I told him that it was no problem, and things went on to the point where I didn't just build one engine for him, but two engines for him.
My videos and info on this topic were primarily done to cut down on the same old messages coming through our system. The same symptoms, the same issues, and etc slow us down. Now, after the video series on bore scoring we don't get those questions.Instead, we end up with "My car had some symptoms of bore scoring, and I found your videos on youtube. You described my symptoms verbatim, and I used your video to bore scope my own engine, and diagnose it at home. Thank you for helping me understand this failure"
99% of those never lead to a sale for us. We build engines for the 1% who love their car enough. The other 99% benefit from the videos, that save them money on misdiagnoses, and spending thousands of dollars replacing AOS units, and chasing down phantom issues for an engine that "runs fine, but just burns oil".
Rennlist Member
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,454
Likes: 177
From: So.CA
Maybe the vendor haters that say that we are taking advantage of the scenario should focus on the fact that we have foresight, and forethought to see these issues coming. We invested time, and money to ensure that we would have a proven solution to the problem waiting, for when the issues started to occur.
This is exactly what happened. Instead of people hating that we'd created a solution, we used to be laughed at for "wasting our time with those motors". This happened to me for years in the early days, so its quite comical to see where things ended up.
I can't tell you how many times I've had people on this forum not believe "the hype" or not like what I say, and give me hell about it, only to turn around and need me to help them. One poster here, Pete Passon (sneaky Pete) fit the bill perfectly. He even came clean with me on the phone when he called after his failure and said "I have to tell you, I am sneaky Pete from Rennlist, I hope after you learn this that you will still work with me". I told him that it was no problem, and things went on to the point where I didn't just build one engine for him, but two engines for him.
My videos and info on this topic were primarily done to cut down on the same old messages coming through our system. The same symptoms, the same issues, and etc slow us down. Now, after the video series on bore scoring we don't get those questions.Instead, we end up with "My car had some symptoms of bore scoring, and I found your videos on youtube. You described my symptoms verbatim, and I used your video to bore scope my own engine, and diagnose it at home. Thank you for helping me understand this failure"
99% of those never lead to a sale for us. We build engines for the 1% who love their car enough. The other 99% benefit from the videos, that save them money on misdiagnoses, and spending thousands of dollars replacing AOS units, and chasing down phantom issues for an engine that "runs fine, but just burns oil".
This is exactly what happened. Instead of people hating that we'd created a solution, we used to be laughed at for "wasting our time with those motors". This happened to me for years in the early days, so its quite comical to see where things ended up.
I can't tell you how many times I've had people on this forum not believe "the hype" or not like what I say, and give me hell about it, only to turn around and need me to help them. One poster here, Pete Passon (sneaky Pete) fit the bill perfectly. He even came clean with me on the phone when he called after his failure and said "I have to tell you, I am sneaky Pete from Rennlist, I hope after you learn this that you will still work with me". I told him that it was no problem, and things went on to the point where I didn't just build one engine for him, but two engines for him.
My videos and info on this topic were primarily done to cut down on the same old messages coming through our system. The same symptoms, the same issues, and etc slow us down. Now, after the video series on bore scoring we don't get those questions.Instead, we end up with "My car had some symptoms of bore scoring, and I found your videos on youtube. You described my symptoms verbatim, and I used your video to bore scope my own engine, and diagnose it at home. Thank you for helping me understand this failure"
99% of those never lead to a sale for us. We build engines for the 1% who love their car enough. The other 99% benefit from the videos, that save them money on misdiagnoses, and spending thousands of dollars replacing AOS units, and chasing down phantom issues for an engine that "runs fine, but just burns oil".
Adapt and overcome Uh-rah!
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Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Momence, IL
Sorry to hear about your engine issues. It's unfortunate when an extremely low probability event happens to you but that does not change the fact that it is an extremely low probability event.
There are plenty of ways a business can profit indirectly from an issue. For example, a business could seize on an issue and "hype" (i.e., make the issue seem more common than it really is) the issue in its marketing campaign to garner more attention for the business and its services. It's a bonus when the "hyping" of the issue serves to further disparage a product (in this case an engine) in which you happen to offer a modified improved solution to the product.
There are plenty of ways a business can profit indirectly from an issue. For example, a business could seize on an issue and "hype" (i.e., make the issue seem more common than it really is) the issue in its marketing campaign to garner more attention for the business and its services. It's a bonus when the "hyping" of the issue serves to further disparage a product (in this case an engine) in which you happen to offer a modified improved solution to the product.
Just because we developed the Nickies process for the M96 engine and Jake rebuilds M96 engines doesn't mean that we created the bore scoring issue and our posting about it will make someone's car spontaneously have a problem. We see customers engines often misdiagnosed as needing lifters, which is a costly error. Educating owners on how to detect the issue and equally, identifying action items on how to lessen the chance of such a problem, is part of what we do.
Nothing changes the fact that the Lokasil (only used by Porsche) and Alusil, used by many European auto manufacturers, can suffer from scoring, and do. This is true of any hypereutectic block. The UMW regime (ultra-mild wear) of hypereutectic blocks is well documented and scoring occurs once the exposed silicon matrix distribution is such that there isn't the required oil film and silicon particles to support the loads. Bam - scoring.
Porsche is now transitioning, at least in the sports cars, to SUMEbore, over Alusil, which is allows for an aluminum block with a thin wear coating applied to the bore about .005" thick using a iron/ceramic composite that has excellent wear and friction characteristics. The 918 was the first Porsche to get it and other manufacturers have been using it for some time, like Nissan with the GTR and Ford has a variant of the process called PTWA, that is equally reliable. These cylinder coatings are the future, but again cost, is the reason we don't see this technology used industry-wide.
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 3,167
Likes: 888
From: Flyover Country
I'm used to this mindset. Same happened here on Rennlist and on Pelican when we started making the IMS Retrofit. Some said we invented the problem. Fast forward several years and the Eisen class action lawsuit proved otherwise. Even Porsche developed their own IMS replacement (which made a brief appearance and then disappeared from their parts system) using a sealed single row ceramic hybrid bearing, like our first IMS kit.
Just because we developed the Nickies process for the M96 engine and Jake rebuilds M96 engines doesn't mean that we created the bore scoring issue and our posting about it will make someone's car spontaneously have a problem. We see customers engines often misdiagnosed as needing lifters, which is a costly error. Educating owners on how to detect the issue and equally, identifying action items on how to lessen the chance of such a problem, is part of what we do.
Nothing changes the fact that the Lokasil (only used by Porsche) and Alusil, used by many European auto manufacturers, can suffer from scoring, and do. This is true of any hypereutectic block. The UMW regime (ultra-mild wear) of hypereutectic blocks is well documented and scoring occurs once the exposed silicon matrix distribution is such that there isn't the required oil film and silicon particles to support the loads. Bam - scoring.
Porsche is now transitioning, at least in the sports cars, to SUMEbore, over Alusil, which is allows for an aluminum block with a thin wear coating applied to the bore about .005" thick using a iron/ceramic composite that has excellent wear and friction characteristics. The 918 was the first Porsche to get it and other manufacturers have been using it for some time, like Nissan with the GTR and Ford has a variant of the process called PTWA, that is equally reliable. These cylinder coatings are the future, but again cost, is the reason we don't see this technology used industry-wide.
Just because we developed the Nickies process for the M96 engine and Jake rebuilds M96 engines doesn't mean that we created the bore scoring issue and our posting about it will make someone's car spontaneously have a problem. We see customers engines often misdiagnosed as needing lifters, which is a costly error. Educating owners on how to detect the issue and equally, identifying action items on how to lessen the chance of such a problem, is part of what we do.
Nothing changes the fact that the Lokasil (only used by Porsche) and Alusil, used by many European auto manufacturers, can suffer from scoring, and do. This is true of any hypereutectic block. The UMW regime (ultra-mild wear) of hypereutectic blocks is well documented and scoring occurs once the exposed silicon matrix distribution is such that there isn't the required oil film and silicon particles to support the loads. Bam - scoring.
Porsche is now transitioning, at least in the sports cars, to SUMEbore, over Alusil, which is allows for an aluminum block with a thin wear coating applied to the bore about .005" thick using a iron/ceramic composite that has excellent wear and friction characteristics. The 918 was the first Porsche to get it and other manufacturers have been using it for some time, like Nissan with the GTR and Ford has a variant of the process called PTWA, that is equally reliable. These cylinder coatings are the future, but again cost, is the reason we don't see this technology used industry-wide.
Instructor
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 195
Likes: 9
From: City of Angels
So when it is a lifter and not bore scoring, what are the symptoms with the m96? Is the noise similar to the noise you have when a bore is scored? I rarely see this discussed and would like to know.
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From: Momence, IL
That's a great question. I've never seen one in our shop need lifters. A bad lifter would cause a similar sound and be accompanied likely by a misfire, but without the symptoms of a scored bore. Usually inspection of the spark plugs will find a scored bore has a fouled plug and one tail pipe (the one for bank 2) will be sootier than the other. These are classic signs coupled with increased oil consumption. I would rule out the scored bore first before even considering the lifters.
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 3,167
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From: Flyover Country
That's a great question. I've never seen one in our shop need lifters. A bad lifter would cause a similar sound and be accompanied likely by a misfire, but without the symptoms of a scored bore. Usually inspection of the spark plugs will find a scored bore has a fouled plug and one tail pipe (the one for bank 2) will be sootier than the other. These are classic signs coupled with increased oil consumption. I would rule out the scored bore first before even considering the lifters.
BTW I just realized I need to be nicer to you as my block is probably sitting in your facility at this time.
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From: Momence, IL
You just explained my bore scoring experience w/o the suspicion of a lifter as I had been reading here for years. In addition my #6 plug was so fouled it was throwing a 0306 code with the misfire.
BTW I just realized I need to be nicer to you as my block is probably sitting in your facility at this time.
BTW I just realized I need to be nicer to you as my block is probably sitting in your facility at this time.