Thank you! Thank you! You are most wonderful! I am not worthy! I am not worthy!

Seriously though I appreciate the things you and Jake freely share on these types of forums. It was this type of information that led me to determine what was ailing my car without jumping through the indi "Sounds like a lifter to me" hoop. As the symptoms progressed I knew exactly what was wrong and how to definitively diagnose it. Saved me a lot of time and wasted money.

 

You are most welcome. Some days it doesn't feel like I accomplish anything because most of the time I'm tethered to my desk answering emails or on the forums, but my primary job is to help educate the consumer and also the shops we work with. Believe it or not, we still have shops call that have never done an IMS and some that haven't even worked on an M96 engine at all, so it's easy to see how an engine can get misdiagnosed.

Doing this work on the front end makes everything easier. It's not in our interest to scare people out of buying or owning these cars. That just hurts resale values and that's no good for anyone. Ultimately the customer has to understand what they want and why they want it (or need it), otherwise they won't be happy with decision.

 

My 69 911,, had 200+K on the factory 2.0 engine.. It was a T motor so had iron jugs,
according to the machinist that honed them for me they were actually Ductile(Nodular) iron.
Probably the reason they lasted so long and wore out 2 sets of pistons and 3 sets of rings..

Nobody told me they were hard ot rebuild so I just did it.. Of course that motor was WAY simpler
to assemble than a 996.. basically a bug motor on steroids..

 

Since when is identifying an issue and developing a product/technique to address/fix it, "hyping" it? I think there's a problem with your logic. The fact that you have a RUF logo in your signature makes it look like maybe you have an axe to grind... I don't believe I've ever read a post by either LNE or FSI where they either stated or implied that they were "mechanical geniuses" - actually it's quite the contrary, as they usually state that they've gained most of their knowledge of these engines through "in the trenches" R&D via both racing and street applications. It seems to me that they've earned their reputation as some of the best M96 engine builders/developers by perseverance and by doing things right - as opposed to offering cheap alternatives (as so many of their "competitors" try to do). There's certainly nothing wrong with questioning a companies products or claims (it's actually a good thing and keeps the con men to a minimum), but to accuse them of "hyping" a problem like bore scoring or the IMS bearing is a bit of a stretch.

 

FYI- the last "lifter job" that came into Flat 6, that was really a "lifter job" was in 2009. We've had dozens and dozens of misdiagnosed "lifters" over that period of time.

Every now and then we find a lifter issue that's causing a misfire, but these never make noise. That's because the lifter actually seizes in the extended position, and holds the valve open, creating the misfire. This is the opposite phenomenon from that of a "noisy lifter", because excessive lash causes the noise to occur.

We do find a lot of cracked intake lifters on the variocam "plus" engines, and sometimes these lifters will fail, but even then, they typically don't make any noise, until one of the pieces they shed gets sucked up by a scavenge pump, which locks it up, and causes collateral damage.
That said, at the end of the day it is the goal of a business to capitalize on the issues that are made by the manufacturer. If it wasn't for people like us, having the foresight, and forethought to develop, and prove methods, and components to address the shortcomings, everyone would be stuck paying the factory for another replacement that had the same issues. Maybe then these folks would actually hate the manufacturer, instead of us?

 

So is it possible that a collapsed lifter can make a similar noise to bore scoring, without causing a misfire? What type of damage could a non cracked lifter (when valve lash is occurring) eventually do in these engines? Also, is it possible when oil pressure goes up that a collapsed lifter could begin working again?

 

You mean, as opposed to the mech geniuses that gave us the faulty IM$ bearing fiasco, and has been basically resolved by LN/Raby? Some engineers make mistakes(this one I believe was borne out of a cost situation), then other engineers come along and fix them. Porsche tried to fix it by increasing the size of the bearing. Didn't help. Critics are usually short on alternatives, specifics, and development. But long on how others aren't doing it right. One of the sad parts of the internet is that it gives platform to everyone without any means/value testing.

sigh,,,

 

Anything can happen. Lifters making noise is a very rare instance with these engines in reality. Even a cracked lifter won’t make any noise.

That said, as soon as someone hears a noise that “sounds like a lifter” they should immediately follow my part 4 video found in the YouTube series “a focus on bore scoring” and properly diagnose the sound. I show you exactly how to do this without question for less than 100 bucks, at home.

The first concern should be that be that you do have bore scoring and that the noise is not a lifter. The engine is guilty until proven innocent with a comprehensive, and proper diagnostic session. If the traits of bore scoring are not found with this full process, then, and only then does one assume that they have a “noisy lifter”.

In almost every case people do the opposite and waste hundreds or thousands of dollars treating a symptom that was misdiagnosed.

 

Thanks Jake. I've watched all of your videos and really appreciate them. There's not much info on when it is a lifter and not bore scoring, so just wanted to get some more details.

 

Do any of the Flat-4 Subaru engines suffer from bore scoring?

Mike

 

Don't know about scoring but the kid's WRX ate a rod bearing at less than 20k miles and he never beat it. The sound was clearly a rod knock. It was a tsunami era car which might have created some quality issues as it pretty much messed up supply chains.

 

I owned a new '05 WRX STi for a few years. I never heard of bore scoring during my ownership. I drove my STi pretty hard with lots and lots of track miles and never had an issue, not one. I did have a friend with a '02 WRX that had the same issue as your son.

Mike

 

Interesting thing is they "rebuilt" his engine with a factory short block, all new oil piping, oil cooler, turbo, and anything that saw oil(heads were cleaned and flushed). All under warrantee. When done he asked what his cost would have been if no warrantee. Less than $6k. So there are some ownership advantages for some lesser cars.

 

^^^^
This is true.

Mike

 

Gentlemen -

This is a worthwhile and interesting discussion. Let's not allow such a thread to degenerate into personal attacks. Please keep the conversation civil and respectful.