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2019 Engine Rebuild Comparison RND/FSI/EBS/Vertex

 
Old 05-02-2019, 01:11 PM
  #61  
AnthonyGS
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I hope something is becoming apparent to everyone. Choose an engine builder wisely.

Your engine builder has to make lots of decisions on every fastener, every washer, each part, chains, guides, bearings, coatings, clearances, deck height, sealants, gaskets, and 100s of other things. No spreadsheet will account for this unless you list each and every item. An actual human decision needs to be made. Whoís employees do you trust most to make all these decisions? Choose wisely because choosing incorrectly means doing it all over again.

Iím not going to tell you how to choose, or who Iíd choose. I already know which way to go on this one.

Your car, your decision.... enjoy the drive.

Also Charles already mentioned bore spacing concerns. The M96 has lots of engineering concerns. Seeing one in parts is eye opening if youíve ever worked domestic V8s. Porsche really is asking a lot out of a very compact small displacement engine with light parts. You walk a very fine line when trying to save money on this engine. Bore spacing, rod ratios, bearing sizes, materials, rpm, and a ton of other things tell you this engine has a hard life. Then the lowliest one in a 911 makes 300 hp..... Itís a wonder they last this long.
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Old 05-02-2019, 02:14 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by Charles Navarro View Post
Correct. They compare almost exactly because Jake built the RND program for SSF Auto Parts originally. With SSF bowing out of the engine business, I have taken over RND since the start of the year and rolled RND into LN's operations.
Which is another reason that I phased out the "Stocker" program here at Flat 6.
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Old 05-02-2019, 04:46 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by Charles Navarro View Post
The biggest issues we see with any engine built with nikasil cylinders, either Nickies or Mahle Motorsports, and that goes for aircooled or watercooled as well, is improper cleaning, assembly, using synthetic oil at break-in, and most importantly, overfuelling, especially during break-in, which can happen with any engine, regardless of cylinder technology employed.

Excess fuel either from a bad injector or a vacuum leak causing enrichment will wash down a cylinder bore in short order and wipe the rings out, requiring the bore to be deglazed and re-ringed. Case in point, a well known and respected Porsche shop had a factory Porsche shortblock score on the same cylinder 2000 miles in as had scored on the previous engine. Injectors tested ok, but they obviously were not. That's why we mandate injectors be replaced when rebuilding or replacing an engine and why we have detailed instructions for the RND program or what and what not to do when installing an engine.
Charles Navarro Thanks for another great and detailed technical explanation. It's hugely helpful for those of us how are interested in the details. One question for you: if replacing injectors is critical for the longevity of the engine, why doesn't RND replace them as part of the rebuild? Seems like the customer is going to pay for it either way, and there would be less likelihood of bad installer causing problems for both the you and the customer.

Originally Posted by Charles Navarro View Post
We have had a few customers over the years, aircooled and watercooled, including complete RND Engines or with blocks sleeved by LN with Nickies, have problems attributed to these issues caused by one of these errors or failures we've identified that are not an actual defect or issue with the Nickies cylinders or sleeves themselves.

Case in point, we have a car that had an RND Engine fitted at another shop come to us with a massive vacuum leak (diagnosed by smoke test), which required us to tear the block down and rebuild the engine to correct the damage caused by the shortcomings of the installation.

The reason I am going to such lengths to make my point is that we often see shops cut corners or are just purely incompetent, almost on a daily basis, trying to be the hero by saving the customer money or lowering acceptable standards for what needs to be changed or done during any particular job (IMS replacement, engine rebuild) to meet a price point rather than lose a job to another shop.
I think it's great that you're going to great lengths to make your point, because it's an important one. I think there is some sentiment (maybe 'hope' is a better word) that Nickies are a silver bullet, and if you include them in your build you are immune to problems with the block. However, engines are complex systems, and any part you replace might fail due to some other part of that system. As you point out, that's true even for a rigorously engineered and flawlessly manufactured part like Nickies.

Originally Posted by Charles Navarro View Post
Lastly, a warranty is just a piece of paper. What can't be quantified on any spreadsheet is years of support on various forums and through emails by Jake, myself, and other shop owners. None of the other engine builders or parts suppliers listed participate at any level supporting the community that gives them business. That aside, I have been supplying aircooled cylinders for almost 20 years and sleeving M96 blocks for a majority of that time, and I would suggest anyone considering having an engine done to search the forums and the Internet for negative experiences with their Nickies cylinders.
I hope you know I'm not questioning your your technical knowledge nor your integrity in any way. The way you conduct yourself here on the forums, the technical knowledge you share, and the reputation your products have garnered in the marketplace are all first rate. I know it's probably too abbreviated a way to capture all this, but there is a reason I have RND's reputation listed as "Excellent" in the spreadsheet. I'm thinking about how I might revise and expand on that aspect of the comparison to better capture the nuance.

All that being said, I think it's a perfectly fair question for a prospective customer to ask about reliability outcomes for a very expensive mechanical product. And warranties aren't just a piece of paper, they are legally binding protection for customers that enables them to compel a business to stand behind a product or service. Warranties aren't everything, but if they weren't meaningful, then every vendor would offer longer warranties.

I also feel obligated to point out that although your reply was full of useful and relevant information, and it does acknowledge that Nickies sometimes experience problems (due to installation error), it doesn't answer my original question of what percentage of them fail in practice. That's important data, because it would tell a prospective buyer just how often builders are installing these incorrectly, and thus the risk of hiring anyone other than RND to perform the rebuild, right? Please let me know if you see a hole in my logic.
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Old 05-02-2019, 04:48 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by Flat6 Innovations View Post
Which is another reason that I phased out the "Stocker" program here at Flat 6.
Flat6 Innovations Your website and the email you sent me both list the Stocker as an option. If you're saying that you're no longer offering it for sale, then I'll remove it from the comparison spreadsheet.
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Old 05-02-2019, 05:11 PM
  #65  
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Does doing a rebuild increase the value of the car? In a rebuild is it best to keep the original block so it’s numbers matching? Be gentle with replies. Thanks for the thread, it is totally useful.
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Old 05-02-2019, 05:16 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by HoustonCgrBkr View Post
Does doing a rebuild increase the value of the car? In a rebuild is it best to keep the original block so itís numbers matching? Be gentle with replies. Thanks for the thread, it is totally useful.
Of course it does!
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Old 05-02-2019, 05:56 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by wsrgklt View Post
Charles Navarro Thanks for another great and detailed technical explanation. It's hugely helpful for those of us how are interested in the details. One question for you: if replacing injectors is critical for the longevity of the engine, why doesn't RND replace them as part of the rebuild? Seems like the customer is going to pay for it either way, and there would be less likelihood of bad installer causing problems for both the you and the customer.

I think it's great that you're going to great lengths to make your point, because it's an important one. I think there is some sentiment (maybe 'hope' is a better word) that Nickies are a silver bullet, and if you include them in your build you are immune to problems with the block. However, engines are complex systems, and any part you replace might fail due to some other part of that system. As you point out, that's true even for a rigorously engineered and flawlessly manufactured part like Nickies.
Injectors are a part of the ancillaries, not the engine itself. Eventually, we will offer engine and install kits through RND, and injectors will be one of the items we include, but for now, we just advise that injectors be replaced rather than be rebuilt.

I hope you know I'm not questioning your your technical knowledge nor your integrity in any way. The way you conduct yourself here on the forums, the technical knowledge you share, and the reputation your products have garnered in the marketplace are all first rate. I know it's probably too abbreviated a way to capture all this, but there is a reason I have RND's reputation listed as "Excellent" in the spreadsheet. I'm thinking about how I might revise and expand on that aspect of the comparison to better capture the nuance.
I value the time and effort you have put into this and I do think everyone here will benefit from what you have shared. I don't see this as negative or that you are questioning or challenging me in any way. It's an opportunity to educate and I do not mind the questions. I welcome technical discussion, as many of your have seen by the substance of my posts. You won't see me commenting or joining in on discussions where I can't offer anything constructive or beneficial to the topic.

All that being said, I think it's a perfectly fair question for a prospective customer to ask about reliability outcomes for a very expensive mechanical product. And warranties aren't just a piece of paper, they are legally binding protection for customers that enables them to compel a business to stand behind a product or service. Warranties aren't everything, but if they weren't meaningful, then every vendor would offer longer warranties.
What I was trying to get across is that yes, a warranty is meaningful, but the true test is that we just don't see warranty claims with our Nickies. When we do have a problem, it's important to learn from it, and not repeat it. Part of that is from the years of R&D, but mostly, it's about our process, design, and strict quality control.

There have been several threads on this forum and Pelican about smoking and oil consumption with blocks or cylinders that have been reconditioned. We know from our experience this is due to improper honing. What might be ok for a two-stroke race motorcycle isn't correct for a Porsche that you want 100,000 miles or more of service life out of. We have our own standards and requirements for our cylinder plating than if you sent a block or set of cylinders to be reconditioned to Millennium Technologies, than what they do for other customers.

100% of cylinders are measured for ovality, taper, and suface finish (Rvk, RpK, and Rk) to ensure customers don't have any problems, so when there is a problem with an engine, we know it's not because of our cylinders, plating, or how they were finished.

I know this is a very long answer to a simple question, but the point of all this is to try to minimize anything that could result in a warranty claim. That's why we don't see them.

I also feel obligated to point out that although your reply was full of useful and relevant information, and it does acknowledge that Nickies sometimes experience problems (due to installation error), it doesn't answer my original question of what percentage of them fail in practice. That's important data, because it would tell a prospective buyer just how often builders are installing these incorrectly, and thus the risk of hiring anyone other than RND to perform the rebuild, right? Please let me know if you see a hole in my logic.
Sorry I wasn't more clear on failure of Nickies. I would have to say zero failures of Nickies that aren't due to some other failure compromising the cylinder or engine operation and that also goes for both aircooled and watercooled Nickies. Nikasil itself has been used for decades and is known for it's extremely low wear characteristics and longevity and there have been zero structural failures of our cylinders or liners in normal service and operation. We have seen some blocks and even aircooled cylinders after having suffered engine failures that are not cylinder related that have required the plating to be redone, but that isn't very often at all considering that we have probably.

We have had the opportunity to examine engines that have come apart for freshening up. Cylinders can typically just be deglazed and pistons typically are replaced in race applications. We have not had to make any changes to the design of our watercooled Nickies for the M96/M97, however inspection of the pistons and rings have allowed up to improve piston designs, which have changed several times over the years, based on these observations. Likewise, skirt coatings were optional and now they are standard with every piston we sell. The used oil analysis from a fresh rebuild and inspection post teardown showed skirt coatings reduce run-in wear and extend component life.

As far as who does the assembly of an engine with a block we've sleeved with Nickies or installs an RND engine, we provide detailed directives and guidelines (which can also be downloaded for free off the LN site) that should be observed. It's up to the customer, shop, and/or engine builder to follow them. Likewise, selecting an engine builder or shop to carry out any work on your car must be carefully researched and shopping for services by price alone is fraught with consequences. There are reasons why some shops qualify customers or have wait lists for new customers.

The download library with our bulletins and guidelines, for those who are interested, can be found at https://lnengineering.com/education/...l-library.html
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Old 05-02-2019, 06:05 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by HoustonCgrBkr View Post
Does doing a rebuild increase the value of the car? In a rebuild is it best to keep the original block so itís numbers matching? Be gentle with replies. Thanks for the thread, it is totally useful.
Unless you do the work yourself, I would not expect rebuilding the engine will result in an increase of the value of the car to offset the rebuild costs. That's why cars with broken engines sell for next to nothing.

We deal with this issue on a daily basis. It's a big ticket item to properly rebuild a Porsche engine. What I tell people is this - "How much would you have to spend to get an equal amount of enjoyment out of a new Porsche." Usually, if you look at it from that angle, a $20-30k investment is cheaper than writing the car off and buying a Porsche. Some wear Porsche off forever where for others, their car is so tired and wore out, that it doesn't make sense to fix it. We are there for a disproportionately small number of owners who have a car worth fixing and see the value in doing so.

As far as the original block is concerned, Porsche didn't track engine numbers in production records or that information isn't available to us, so there isn't really any loss in value if the car doesn't have the original engine case.
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Old 05-05-2019, 08:43 PM
  #69  
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https://www.autoblog.com/2019/05/05/...021&yptr=yahoo

Maybe add this to the list? 30k 😀
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Old 05-06-2019, 10:35 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by rechtien View Post
https://www.autoblog.com/2019/05/05/...021&yptr=yahoo

Maybe add this to the list? 30k ��
Good luck shoe-horning that into a 996
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Old 05-06-2019, 07:04 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by dporto View Post
Good luck shoe-horning that into a 996
True, but an LS3 will fit and has been done many times. At the risk of being blasphemous, it would be interesting to include an LS3 crate engine in the analysis. There is no disputing the power increase, and some claim it can be done cheaper than rebuilding a stock engine. I donít think the latter is true without using a junkyard engine and lots of hand fabrication.
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Old 05-06-2019, 07:41 PM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by Coopduc View Post
True, but an LS3 will fit and has been done many times. At the risk of being blasphemous, it would be interesting to include an LS3 crate engine in the analysis. There is no disputing the power increase, and some claim it can be done cheaper than rebuilding a stock engine. I don’t think the latter is true without using a junkyard engine and lots of hand fabrication.
Yah, so many throw out the LS swap comment like they know what they're talking about, most don't!

Last edited by 808Bill; 05-07-2019 at 01:29 AM.
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Old 05-07-2019, 12:43 AM
  #73  
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Tyler Hoover documented his build with a junkyard LS3 and the Renegade kit.

https://www.autotrader.com/car-video...w-much--269126

Parts were about $14k and it was 85 hours of labor. That brought his cost to around $17k total. It puts the LS swap in the same neighborhood as a rebuild. Maybe a viable option for someone who has cheap/free labor and who doesnít consider a flat six integral to the 911 experience.

Looks like using a new crate motor motor would add another $3-4K to the cost.
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Old 05-07-2019, 09:54 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by wsrgklt View Post
Tyler Hoover documented his build with a junkyard LS3 and the Renegade kit.

https://www.autotrader.com/car-video...w-much--269126

Parts were about $14k and it was 85 hours of labor. That brought his cost to around $17k total. It puts the LS swap in the same neighborhood as a rebuild. Maybe a viable option for someone who has cheap/free labor and who doesnít consider a flat six integral to the 911 experience.

Looks like using a new crate motor motor would add another $3-4K to the cost.
It should also be noted that he also blew the ls engine shortly after the swap.
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Old 05-07-2019, 10:09 AM
  #75  
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Nice thing with LS engines is that they can be had for cheap on junkyards. So if your engine blows then you just buy a junkyard engine for $2000 (or spend $20k on a built one. Whatever you want).

I don't think the swap makes sense since its so expensive, you can have a solid m96 for the same price.

If the swap was $5k - $10k then it would be a very interesting option and would be a dream track car.
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