LAT

Good question, don't know.

Felix

Geoffrey, can you expand on how you do this?

NineMeister

Motec.

Jean

Motec, or any other datalogger with a temp sensor certainly, like the AX22 and many other.. Felix you simply have to do what you did for the boost sensor, it is that simple. You can also measure another 20 or 30 values from head temps to gearbox temps, on that same device if I am not mistaken.

But are we trying to establish the efficiency percentage of the intercoolers, or do we want to know how do they translate that efficiency into horsepower and at what cost? I am confused.

NineMeister

No need to be confused Jean. If we know the approximate mass air flow and the inlet/outlet temperature difference of the intercooler, we can calculate the actual heat transfer that is occuring through the core. Knowing the efficiency of the core you can then deduce the approximate air velocity across the core at speed, which is the only unknown factor in the equation. Once the average cooling air velocity is known we can then deduce which cooling fin design will give the best results. I suppose ultimately we could measure the ambient temperature gradient across the cooling side of the core as well, but what the data will give us is a fuller view of the problem to make a more educated guess at the solution. So far a stab-in-the-dark estimate has given us near identical acceleration results as the industry standard Secan (according to Jussi), to go to the next stage we really need to collate more accurate information - but what I can add with certainly is that simply making the core deeper/wider/longer is neither the only nor best solution when you have access to core design data.

Jussi

I have several K-Type thermocouples and MAP sensors installed to my quite powerful car plus all OBD2 sensors.
I have many dataloggings from stock IC runs and I'm looking for a new better IC.
I can be a voluntary for test your product !
I can test them/that at airport up to 200mph.

NineMeister

Thanks for the offer Jussi, I'll have a chat with the engineering team and see what the ideal information package that we will need to collate and see what we can do. Where are you based?

bb993tt

Toby, isn't another issue just knowing exactly how one buys a Secan, if so inclined? I understand it's not easy for the non-RSTuning owner. One can't just run down to the local Secan shop and say "I'll take a big one, and can I have it in shiny please?". Or can we?

Jussi

PM sent

Jean

Colin

All of this sounds great, the reason I am still confused (I am a bit slow sorry about that) is because I don't care about designs and efficiency percentage and air speed circulation and other stuff that I can read in books, but I am interested in what are the actual results of all of this theory.

Yes the acceleration was close to the Secan, however the horsepower ratings across the whole run where close to 4HP difference with the stock intercooler once you try to isolate shifting times as seen on the graph below, the real "area under the curve" in other words, unlike these specific acceleration runs where the shifts times and shifting points had a direct impact on the performance obtained.

To be fair, performance is what matters to me, but I cannot disregard to look a bit further into the detail to know what is really going on, in this case , what is the real incremental HP I am benefiting from when I pay the 10K usd for an intercooler and if I were to redo the runs with more comparable shifting or other factors that made the 9M IC outperform by some margin the stock IC in speed vs. time.. I look at both parameters to understand better and have good basis for comparison.

In fact I would go as far as saying that I would bet that this IC does not perform better than a $3k US Spearco of similar sizes in a similar high speed run...

dbf73

I noticed from a bit of Googling that Secan is a Honeywell sub. Any Honeywell employees here that can get an employee discount?

TB993tt

Ok, for the avoidance of doubt since Colin seems to be getting confused on this as he thinks his prototype gives the same performance as the Secan -the data is all on this thread and frankly one would expect engineers to be able to find it, but....

My headline "bolt on 30hp" refers to the peak IAT of the 9M v the stock in 6th gear at 180mph under full load - it is a true statement since the 9Ms 42Deg IAT will only have 0.5degree timing retard compared to the stock I/Cs 4.5 degree -this is worth about 30hp !

But the analysis has developed from there with some great "G" charts which show theoretical average hp based on actual acceleration performance and contracdicts the +30hp
This is because if you look at the chart below the 9M IAT curve in 5th gear goes from 42 to 46DegC and in 6th gear goes from 44 to 46 DegC - if you check back to that Motronic chart you will see 43.5DegreeC triggers a 2.25 retard of the ignition so that 30hp is gone hence the lower average increase.

Don't forget once 52.5DegreesC is hit you will lose 4.5degrees of advance and that represents 30+hp - I would guesstimate that the 9M unit would be at that level in 5th gear on a 22DegC day - the Secan will NOT, that is the BIG difference.....

Jussi

Yes, you are right Toby. That timing retarding can be seen also from acceleration curves. Actually they are identical from 90kph till 215kph where that 43.5 degree limit will exceeded by 9M. After that point, acceleration is not as strong as with Secan IC. But in the real world, difference is very minimal, at least in these tests:

But this efficiency of the IC is very difficult thing.. I think that it is not possible to do one 100% perfect IC for all hp levels because it must be always compromise how much it will flow and how much it will reduce heat.. am I right? At least this is my common sense..

sfl993t4

I think that from the evidence presented we can all agree that the 9m in its form as first prototype / proof of concept doesn't cool as much as the Secan but does cool more than stock.
Given this, Colin's position appears to be that he will continue to gather data and further improve his product. This doesn't seem unreasonable, and I think that he appears to be going about the product development process the right way.
Would we not all be better off on this board if more vendors put their products (and product development) up for public testing like this?

Jean, on your bet that a standard Spearco core would cool as well as the 9m, you may be right, and so I think that the honorouble thing would be for you to build one and put it up for public test (as 9m has done).
Old intercoolers are available for the end-tanks, and for reference the core size of the 9m that you are trying to match exactly with one from Spearco is 265mm x 265mm x 70mm.
Keep up the good work everyone, this kind of post gives lots of entertainment to all.
Steve

LA964RS

Now that's a good idea....be interesting to see what they say to that employee when he rocks up and asks for 20 i/c's please.