eclou

Another amazingly informative thread, kudos to everyone as this is top notch sleuthing!!

Jean

Steve

I don't understand why is my honour related to building and testing an intercooler?.

I will leave it to the people making money out of selling them as they should be funding these tests, it is the best R&D they can get. I personally make my money somewhere else.

Let's not loose focus, Marston is a very respectable company and is a top notch fabricator, but BEHR (OEM) has a huge heritage in cooling systems and engineering and is at least as respectable, so getting better results than OEM is something to celebrate, even if it is 4HP on average or whatever. With the right amount of R&D and time, I would not be surprised to see these results improving drastically, BEHR has worked with Porsche engineers for years, Secan as well, they have the Porsche racing experience as an asset.

Colin has gained my respect by putting his intercoolers independently to test and is the only tuner I know of who has done so, great kudos to him.

I do believe that a Spearco or other of these similar bar and plate ICs that are being sold in the US will perform just as well on a similar run or within maybe a 5% difference up or down..

If you want a real testing ground for cooler efficiency, let us try those three or more coolers in 40deg C at the track here ( at night) over 3 laps, suppliers are welcome to send them to me, and I will test them with a mild factory 450HP upgraded 993TT, I can book the track with no issues and welcome anyone who wants to join. I will also get you Porsche magazine coverage in no time for the test. That will be my contribution to science

sfl993t4

Sorry Jean, my wording was probably wrong. Didn't mean to offend.
As you say further testing of these three intercoolers in different situations will give everyone valuable data. It would also be very interesting to test some of the other vendor alternatives.
Have fun,
Steve

Jean

Steve, no offense taken at all. Thanks

Jussi

Does anyone have tested information how Protomotive IC performs?
That is much bigger and not too expensive.. should be better than stock?

Felix

The DL1 can take up to 8 analogue inputs with a range of 0-5 or 0-12 volts. I used an external pressure sensor http://www.freescale.com/files/senso...t/MPX4250A.pdf and tapped into output from the factory IAT sensor. What I was getting at was how/where thermocouples would be installed to measure turbo output air temp. Modifiying a turbo to IC hose? Clamped to the compressor housing? Clamped to the IC end tank?

eclou

I would guess the Protomotive cooler is based on Spearco cores. I would love to see the testing under Jean's conditions as those should tax the IC's the most

NineMeister

Assimilating more data will be the key to pushing the 9m intercooler development further in the right direction as it will verify the design decisions we need to make. Making the prototype without significant data meant that we had to pretty much guess at the core design required - we chose to prioritise a low flow resistance core which thus compromised the heat transfer capacity. The graphs prepared by Jean and everyone else seem to show that this approach has paid off in low gears/at low speed where the 9m i/c blows the doors off the standard i/c and but it cannot hang on to the shirt tail of the Secan at high speed & load. This is a solveable problem that may involve a change of size, but getting more data from the current 9m intercooler must be the priority before we finalise the design and make a second prototype.

Jussi has kindly offered to test the intercooler on his highly modified 993tt at the local airstrip, so once I get it back from Phelix I'll send it on an extended holiday in Finland. I would then be more than happy to pass it on to Jean for high temp track testing, I'm pretty sure that its low back pressure design would work well at the lower speeds and faster acceleration rates that a near stock 993tt would see on track, but maybe this should wait until more design data is collated and the design is finalised and I'll send him a production version for testing.

For me though at least at stage 1 of development we have proven that, contrary to Rennlist folklore, you can improve the performance of the standard fit 993tt intercooler by using high quality cores that are not made by Secan. Who knows, with a little bit more effort we will be able to match or surpass the high speed cooling ability of the Secan, but there's a lot more work to do before that day comes. I also seriously doubt that other makes of core would get anywhere near the performance of our Marston without being significantly larger in area - but that is for someone else to proof test, not me.

Onwards and upwards......

JBL930

Who knows, with a little bit more effort you may be able to "get someone else" to design you a magic carpet too. What actual development have you done exactly, you've sent off a standard intercooler and had another company weld "what they thought" would be the best cores to it, it seams to have had some degree of success, makes a change!
All this 9m development, design nonsense, it's like the super special low spool 9m ball race development turbo, which is a simple off the shelf garrett number, it's all just bollocks. Good luck though

Felix

Jon, in my opinion your post is out of line and doesn't belong in this thread. Colin's taken the time, money and effort to have an intercooler fabricated that's plug and play on the 993tt and allowed it to be tested by me, someone he's never even spoken to on the phone, much less met. And he's offered to send it to Jussi as well. That's more than good enough for me.

Your concerns (and those of others) have been well documented in another thread; please don't bring them into this thread.

This is all meant in the amicable Rennlist spirit.

Greg H.

+1

I find it incredible that anyone is doing R&D on a 12 year old car with a discontinued engine system. Why discourage that?

Greg H.

JBL930

Fair enough Felix, point taken, it's just the way he words things, leaves a bad taste in my mouth thats all. If he was a millionth of the tuner he said he was he would get out there and test it himself.
If the intercooler turns out to really do the business i'll even buy one myself!

Jussi

Colin,
I think that your IC would be even better if it would be as big as Secan model. It is too restrictive at faster speed. Could you put more depth to it before you'll send it for testing?
It seems to work as good as secan up to 200 kph but then needed air flow is so huge (air drag increased) that little IC will restrict flow and cause more heat (=>ECU retards timing=> less power and G). Secan has already tested suitable dimensions for superior IC - why don't use that..
These are only my opinion..

Jean

Jussi

I have a loooot of engine dyno data and efficiency numbers for the intercooler.. Numbers look fantastic under full load on the dyno....the car runs great in straight line acceleration in 45Deg C wheather...

But.....Does this make this IC superior? I don't think so, it is a large core bar and plate IC with the added benefit of having been tested thoroughly over the years on similar setups and on an engine dyno, they reached a good result with a certain configuration, and then they kept building the same sizes and end tanks etc... It works.

This IC works on MY car with its 3.8 ltrs, xx turbos and yy boost levels. Move to a 3.6 setup and smaller turbos, and you will have to tune accordingly, or most likely you will have pressure losses + more lag => more boost to compensate =>more heat => less efficiency.

The real test is on the track, where I think the Secan would eat it alive and most probably gain 50hp over my IC after a few laps, this is how races were won by top teams racing 3.8 GT2s.

For your application and 200mph targets, they would do great , no doubt about it, they have been throgouhly tested in similar setups, 3.8ltrs, Gt28s, twin plug etc.. your highest temps are lower in summer than my coldest winters, and you don't race your car on the track.

But it ain't no Secan and I know it

Jussi

Yes, I have read that f.. manual but I have also checked my bank account
so, have to find something else, as near to Secan's performance as possible with half of price.. maybe impossible equation