JBL930

Haven't even started on your fiasco yet James, makes my sorry tale look like i went in for a fresh set of brake pads

RS Clubsport

I feel sure that the engine Colin refers to as JC's is in fact mine. 9m modified the cylinder heads and fitted head sealing rings.

The upshot of this was that despite two UK mappers (Chip Wizards who Colin subcontracts work to & Weltmeister) attempting to get rid of the detonation, several months later I had the engine stripped it and required new heads (4 or 5 were damaged), pistons and barrels.

Once the engine was rebuilt it ran perfectly and has since passed through two owners hands with no problems whatsover.

Weltmeister were blamed for damaging the engine by Colin, despite the head modifications and sealing rings being identified as the route cause when the engine was stripped.

Suddenly the prices at the likes of RS Tuning and RUF seem far more attractive!

NineMeister

All done in an effort to help your engine builder. He sent the heads to us with a request for the work to be done, so we took them to a subcontract machine shop who machined the heads for the sealing rings & renewed the valve guides; we assembled the heads and returned them to your engine builder with the rings.
Of course it's all our fault.

RS Clubsport

The cylinder head modification was suggested and instigated by you.

The purpose of my previous post was to confirm the identity of the 993GT2 TB mentioned, and what happened to it's engine.

Whilst the cost of rebuilding the engine was significant, it was a far greater irritant that you washed your hands of any blame.

JamesE

+1

JBL930

At least after my car burst into flames with me in it (poorly fitted super duper porsche guru 7th injector) they did the majority of the work free, after first trying to blame it on me jet-washing the car

NineMeister

If I had been given an opportunity to see the parts and deduce for myself how a sealing ring between the cylinder and head could cause the engine to detonate I would have freely accepted a portion of the blame.


I know this is coming across badly for 9m (someone pass me the larger shovel...) but irrespective of how you may feel now, hand on heart I can say that we try our best, give our best advice and do all our work in good faith. Unfortunately, on rare occasions, mistakes are made, so our policy since day one is to stand by our own work. Hence if any customer has had issues with anything that 9m has done, when given the oportunity we have always worked at our own expense to put the job right irrespective of whether the blame lay with 9m or with kits/parts we chose to supply and fit. We then learn from the experience and move on.

So, if the jobs that 9m has done for you guys has not been good enough, please accept my apologies. There is nothing more I can add.







So, does anyone here want to test a prototype 9m high efficiency 993 turbo intercooler?

Jean

Colin

I must say that your last post sounded quite genuine and I certainly am happy to read it. I am not one who has suffered any financial losses so I might be more lenient than my fellow UK rennlisters who did, but it is appreciated. More than one of the popular tuners here and elsewhere have some worrying track records with engine builds and performance claims of their hardware and software and very few people know it publicly unfortunately for others. Admitting mistakes is an honourable thing to do and not many others do it, to your credit.

It will take me quite longer to digest the record dyno numbers that you always post and comments about your superior tuning that I read above though

Now concerning that intercooler, Phelix would be your best choice as he has surgical capabilities with sensors and data gathering, July at the Nurburgring could be a very interesting test ground, maybe for both of us....Phelix?

Felix

Have been in contact with Colin just this eve... I'd like a more consistent environment than a race track - a disused airport runway in Leicestershire would be perfect.

And Jean - you are an evil man.

JBL930

An apology is a start granted, but saying you stand by your work is incorrect, you didn't have a choice but to stand by my car bursting into flames, i bet you were counting your lucky stars it happened next to a pile of wet sand which i managed to fill the engine bay with. But you wouldn't stand by your special new ball race 9m turbo fitted to my car, i paid for the first rebuild after 8k miles, but when the second one went the best you would offer, even after a lengthy discussion with you saying it was a project car and therefore i was responsible you said you'd fit a new one at cost, not free Colin, not "OK Jon, there is clearly something wrong here, i'll put it right", you even tried blaming your turbo supplier. I'm a joiner, i know bugger all about these engines, i brought it to you and it never ran right, i spent more than i paid for the car!
My sorry saga is mediocre compared to James, shame he's not laying it all out. I think what is hard to swallow Colin is that you brag about your work, posting big numbers, my engine posting always 100bhp more than it actually had on your dyno, James' way more, and we both totally believed you, the people here can read my old posts where i defended you and bragged about how much power i had, i feel like a mug

MOD500

Very interesting thread, quite chilling in fact .... shows how some tuners literally are clueless, and treat customer's cars as rolling R&D whilst charging a fortune and seemingly walking away if anything goes wrong. Sounds like having one's cake and eating it to me, I feel very sorry for the punters who were shafted.

I also remember 9M's post from 2005, in retrospect it is laughable, I guess the German's (and other competent tuners) maybe do know a little about engine management and how to properly tune a Porsche turbo engine?! Maybe some shops should stick to changing oil, plus selling key fobs and Porsche Teddy bears?

Really want to cross post this thread on Pistonheads, but think it would get binned due to the naming and shaming rules on there.

TB993tt

The "exchange" in red below came AFTER I had visited 9M and tried to explain to Colin about loaded engine dyno tuning and why Porsche turbos need to be tuned this way and how ineffective the "8 second power run" method was. We discussed IATs (and Colin showed me his impressive under car evacuation air flow on his chassis dyno) but Colin seemed to think that being able to put ones hand on the intercooler during a power run was sufficient evidence of controlled IATs

It was after this that the "exchange" in red below happened - Colin should read it again carefully (in the light of what has been said by HIS customers in this thread) and IMO should stick to what MOD500 suggests above and not attempt to "tune" Porsche turbo engines other than with independantly proven bolt on kits - Doing this this way is not an admission of lack of knowledge, it is quite the reverse it shows that the shop understands that to increase power of Porsche turbos to factory standard (particularly Motronic ones) requires a depth of knowledge and tooling which very few shops have (or want)

5. With respect to the difference in the mods we do compared with RS tuning, I have found that we get more power/torque out of our engines on lower boost levels purely because we run more ignition timing on a rich mixture, rather than up the boost and back off the timing on a weaker mixture.
However judging by the standard of mapping seen on a couple of German tuned 993RSR's recently, I would not be surprised if simply a more complete understanding of the management system has a greater part to play.




tb993tt said: Not wishing to start questioning 9Ms dyno numbers as that is a little tiresome, but I am fascinated as to how you GT2 guys are claiming such big numbers (compared to RS Tuning engine dyno numbers) from limited mods.



But you are clearly questioning my dyno numbers Toby, the very same dyno that I have used for 15 years with great results. The trouble is that you have shaken the tree and are now backing out of the way of the falling coconuts, so here’s one for you:

When you visited 9m earlier this year, do you not remember me offering to dyno your car for free? You have seen the cooling arrangelent on my installation and know that one test will not punish the car, so why have you not taken me up on this offer?

Is it that, possibly because of the money you have spent, you do not want to know how well your RS tuning engine compares to JC's and RG's? I am sure that given the opportunity JC would be up for sharing the same test session (at the same cost), thus putting the debate to bed once and for all.

RS Clubsport

Some very succinct comments Martyn, and food for thought for anyone foolish enough to go down the same route as I and the other two aggreived posters have.

JamesE

When i sent my car to 9m i asked for 600bhp. when 9m dyno'd my car premods it recorded 450bhp. After a very long time at 9m i was given a dyno chart that showed 640bhp. cutting a long story short every other dyno showed 430bhp and thats after spending much more than an rs upgrade and less than i alreadyhad.

I had to have the entire engine rebuilt which included a lot of machining because the heads and case porting was so bad.

I could go on and document all the issues but it would take a long time and i think we have already realised what 9m really are.

TB993tt

And this is an example of the BS marketing that surely needs changing, this type of language suckers people in.......

How can it be a 9m high efficiency 993 turbo intercooler until is has been fully tested ?
Until it has been back to back tested with a stock unit it is just a fabricated intercooler (like the 6 FAILED prototypes which I have seen sitting on the shelves at RS Tuning), one of many which have tried and failed for the 993tt over the last 12 years.....