Jean

Jussi ,

Sorry but answering all your questions, claims etc is very time consuming, so I am limiting myself to a few.

I am totally confused as a result of the different angles you are looking at everything.

So after all of this, what is your dry weight (without you)? I started thinking it was 1520 Kgs (stock), then I understood that it was 1480 Kgs with you in it, is that correct?

What do you estimate your HP to be, what do you estimate my car's HP to be at my 1.1 Bar+, and what do you estimate TB's car to be. Knowing that both TB and myself have around 7070 RPM redline

I cannot continue the debate without understanding where you stand, because suddenly you seem to be disputing my numbers, yet I told you I had only 423HP and not interested to prove it .

BTW apparently one of the cars on turbokraft''s website that you showed has blown the engine sometime back. Some people say twice. Obviously the story is always "being rebuilt for upgrades". I am not poking because I know the owner and he is a great Porschefile and it is very sad in fact. But to get strong numbers that car was running 26lbs of boost it seems.

BTW are you sure your boost is controlled by the ECU rather than the wastegates? With or without boost controller regardless. Your peak boost should be at peak torque, not HP, if it is at max HP, that tells me that it is fixed and not variable.. (variable would max at peak torque and then drops)

Jussi

Jean,
That about 1480kg was running weight in those tests.
The car has been weighted in official 4 wheel weighing scale (PRCF) to 1415kg without me and about 1/3 tank.
After that, I have only changed one steel door to Kevlar one.
I weight about 80kg and computers etc measurement systems about 3 kilos. That one door weight saving is about 13 kilos.
So that makes 1415+80+3-13 = 1485 kg with about 30 litres shell v power.

About that boost control thing.. I'm not an expert in that. I have thought that ECU control those wastegates.. But in dyno chart, max pressure is somewhere were is also max hp area. But I understood that ECU can lower boost pressures when it notices too much heat.. There is some kind of factor table ? like what TB has shown for timing adjustment..

My car has been (2WD chassis) dyno measured and that gave 490kw, I have calculated from acceleration times about 500kw.. Can you calculate also what I might have? I don't blame you what ever you tell but I'll expect something in same area..
Could you calculate TB's power from that 4th gear acceleration? Please, I like to see what I do wrong because my calculation give 615hp when using that 12% transmission lost. Could you send your calculation(excel) to me by email or an attachment file. That would be even cold comfort (I refer to those RUN files)

Jean

Jussi, so your car is lighter than mine in fact. You must have done quite a bit of work on your car to have 4WD and that weight.

As far as the calculations, you have not answered my questions above. When I told you I had 600+ you said I was wrong, why don't you show me how to calculate it, I don't know. The same for TB's data, you questioned his numbers saying they were higher, why don't you show how you calculated the data for the graph you posted?

Remember I am not a professional in this field, so I don't have to cooperate and help, I do it when I feel like it only and when I know it is for a genuine reason, which is why I will not share any of my RUN files (which I have with many people before BTW), sorry to say this so bluntly. Just keep in mind one thing when you calculate your torque numbers, BMEP!!!!

Jussi

What? Why they then call your car as a lightweight monster? How much you car weights with empty tank?

You have done those power calculations a lot.. so don't tell me that you can't

Of course I said that you are wrong because you don't have 600hp (or maybe I'm wrong if that + means +100hp ), you have about or near to 700hp, at least what comes protomotive dynos and also when calculating from your accelerations and g forces what you gave...

Why you then said that I was wrong by a margin when I said, TB has about 615hp if don't know what you are talking about... what was/are your basis for that statement?

it is my turn to be confused now

Jean

I don't know the only monster I have is not that one, and it is not lightweight either! My car weighed 1410 Kgs last time I checked it and since then I added most of the sound padding and carpeting back, heavy front RUF bumper and fat tires when I did the runs, so maybe around 1430 kgs?

I know, but no one believes me, just like the BMEP numbers, so they must be wrong? Masses rule

See I told you above, no one believes me I say I have 620-640, and you keep saying I have more. Did I post long Gs of my runs before? I forgot I did honestly, can you point me to them please?

I only know because Reinhold Schmirler gave me Tb's dyno sheet with his blessing, and RS Tuning charge per additional horsepower they give you, so it does not make sense for them to lower the numbers, they make less money.

Hey, time to share the pain!

Jussi

Jean, don't worry, I believe you... - if you use right equations.. but as I have seen, you do.. and if you don't remember what those were, I can fetch them from my file achieve
I use those same ones. I learnt them in school but rechecked them from Bosch's automotive "some-name" book in beginning 2004 when we published first version of that obd software.

So back to topic, here is your earlier question:
can you please tell me what my HP and torque is for this data point only

Long G: 0.40
Speed: 129 Mph
CD: 0.34
Area: 1.93
Stock 993TT gearbox: 5th gear
Total weight: 3300 lbs
Tires: 305 x 30 x18

Here it reply again but now with my runs in same data point.
I have used 1500kg, 315mm tire and 12% transmission lost(2WD) for your calc.
and 1480kg, 295mm tire and 17% transmission lost(4WD) for my car
Nm kw hp Comment
796 491 667 Jean, ver 6 probably?
739 464 631 me run 30.8 ver.7
867 545 741 me run 30.8 ver.6
803 504 686 me run 28.8 ver.6 you have that run Jean
723 454 617 me run 28.8 ver.7 you have that run Jean

So that version version 7 is very odd.. but I assume that you use version 6, am I right?

Do you want to learn more about these calculations, or maybe you know it already.. but anyway. We will add that feature to our next version.. so here it comes :
If you measure your car's torque (with our or ax or etc software) you can then check what is your car's top speed. You will then know if you can achieve theoretical max. speed (calculation from gears, rpms and tires). That based equation where you put left side that usable power(=measured torque) and right side powers what are against that (rolling and wind resistance). When these two sides of equation are equal you can calculate v (velocity)
and if it will be bigger than max theoretical speed, you will then credit from longer gears.
Or if that v is lower that theoretical speed, then you have to bolt bigger turbos
For example I checked that my car's max speed is 330km/h and that needs about 500Nm and I still have 600Nm in that RPM area.. So my car hits against revlimiter easily with 6th gear.. so I would go even faster if changing gears.
I also calculated stock 993TT and that gave topspeed 290km/h what is same that factory promises. So it hasn't power enough to achieve max rpms with 6th.

Stummel

What will be the V-Max of a 430hp 993tt with a "0.7" 6th gear?

TB993tt

Jussi
Did the posts we exchanged showing you IAT heading northwards at 200kph have zero relevance to this debate or are you talking theoretically above ?

If you were showing 48DegC at max revs 200kph in 4th then your torque is already less than it was in 3rd gear at the same point.... The value of torque you have over 300kph (if your ECU allows you to get there) is an unknown number since we haven't managed to establish the IATs in this range yet ?

It would be very interesting if you could get your ECU tuner to pull the tables out of your program software showing the different levels of timing/IAT and boost/IAT - like the ones I have posted here, they may be different ?

Jussi

Only torque curve means.. so if you change gear ratios, you only achieve that limit speed at lower rpm IF you don't have power (torque) enough..
I had that 430hp version at beginning and I measured torque curve against every gear - also for that 6th.
So if you have stock 0.75 6th gear then counterforces are equal when car goes about 6600 rpm which something 295 km/h
and if you have 0.70 6th gear then you should achieve that same limit speed but already at about 6300 rpm

Stummel

thx, you are right according to the amateurish tests I did.

But torque/power for the stock 430hp is higher at 6300rpm than at 6600rpm, isn't it?

how much additional Nm or ps do you need at those rpm to go 310 / 320 / 330 kph?

Felix

It's hp that gives you top speed. From memory the factory quoted that the 408 hp car had a top speed of 290 kph and the 430 car a top speed of 300 kph. The 430 engine has the same max torque as the 408 car. It has more hp at the top end due to a boost increase (1.1 bar or so) at 5500+ rpm.

TB993tt

Just to be a pedant the 1.1 bar is in the mid and at the top of the rev range ~6500rpm -at 5500 near peak power the 408 has typically 0.65/0.7 bar and the 430 0.8/0.9bar AFAIR

Jussi

Yes, you are right but hp is always calculated from torque with multiply it..

So torque at given RPM(you can read: hp) is the force which moves the car and when road is flat and there is no wind, then you have just two counterforces - rolling and wind resistance.

TB993tt

Jussi
You are joking right ?
I don't think you have to explain on here the relationship between torque and hp.....
Concentrate on the "real" torque and hp stuff

Jussi

Yes, but I noticed that in my calc.

You will need 495Nm at 6500 RPM to go 310
You will need 525Nm at 6700 RPM to go 320
You will need 550Nm at 6900 RPM to go 330
when using 285/30R18 and 0.70 6th gear with 4WD