Motec M600 Upgrade
11-03-2005, 07:48 AM
#16
Nordschleife Master
Todd has developed the software and some hardware changing (pressure sensing) on the Motronics ECU that allows him to completely control all of the tables in the ECU. This is why it works so well. The MoTeC ECU will always have some capability a stock Motronic ECU does not have, such as traction control, and other race functions. Further, it has a number of user channels you can define to use as you see fit. With Motronics, you are limited to the design of the ECU, which for a street car should work great. It is not a direct comparison, but in general, Todd's Motronic can do the basics that MoTeC can, which is all that is required for a street car. So, in that respect, nothing should be different. Todd's approach is different than a chip tuner, and in fact uses a 964 type ECU without knock sensing. So, in that respect, it is the same as using an aftermarket ECU, however, the perception is that it is a factoy ECU, when in reality, it is far from that.
In some instances, you might want to make the move to a stand alone ECU, but there are also reasons not to. The main consideration is the tuner who you purchase the equipment from and who will do the tuning job complete and with excellence. There are few out there which is one of the reasons why aftermarket ECUs get a bad reputation. The other reason is the manufacturer distribution. Many of the ECUs sold here in the USA do not have USA distributiors, such as Autronic. So you rely on a dealer network that isn't well trained and their tech support is simply the dealer calling bacy to Austrailia. One of the reasons MoTeC (or MOneyTech as someone put it) costs so much is that their dealers are REQUIRED to be trained and are constantly evaluated on performance. They have a dedicated tech support (which costs) who are excellent at what they do. You need to look at the total cost of ownership. I'm not saying MoTeC is the best for every situation or customer, but it is a solid product with a solid dealer network and reputation. I believe that theoritically, if you had access to all of the Motronic tables like Todd does, then the tuning difference should be minimial. However, you are always locked into the that particular programming and that particular dealer where an aftermarket ECU will allow for user changes (maybe good, maybe bad).
Kevin,
There may not be reasons to replace the stock Motronics with and aftermarket ECU, and perhaps your experience with the Autronics ECU may lead you to think that all aftermarket ECUs are not as good as the factory Motronics. As you begin to install and tune your first Autronic system, you will find that the ECU is fairly inflexible in its design and ability to control the detail software, but does a good job at what it does because of the software developement. For instance, Autronic does not have an air temp compensation table, but rather you are locked into the model Richard Albert designed based on a theortically perfect air pump. It is the level to which you can program the ECU that will determine how well it runs.
I think that for performance applications, the mass flow sensing for engine Load is an inhibitor to tuning and controlling the engine.
In some instances, you might want to make the move to a stand alone ECU, but there are also reasons not to. The main consideration is the tuner who you purchase the equipment from and who will do the tuning job complete and with excellence. There are few out there which is one of the reasons why aftermarket ECUs get a bad reputation. The other reason is the manufacturer distribution. Many of the ECUs sold here in the USA do not have USA distributiors, such as Autronic. So you rely on a dealer network that isn't well trained and their tech support is simply the dealer calling bacy to Austrailia. One of the reasons MoTeC (or MOneyTech as someone put it) costs so much is that their dealers are REQUIRED to be trained and are constantly evaluated on performance. They have a dedicated tech support (which costs) who are excellent at what they do. You need to look at the total cost of ownership. I'm not saying MoTeC is the best for every situation or customer, but it is a solid product with a solid dealer network and reputation. I believe that theoritically, if you had access to all of the Motronic tables like Todd does, then the tuning difference should be minimial. However, you are always locked into the that particular programming and that particular dealer where an aftermarket ECU will allow for user changes (maybe good, maybe bad).
Kevin,
There may not be reasons to replace the stock Motronics with and aftermarket ECU, and perhaps your experience with the Autronics ECU may lead you to think that all aftermarket ECUs are not as good as the factory Motronics. As you begin to install and tune your first Autronic system, you will find that the ECU is fairly inflexible in its design and ability to control the detail software, but does a good job at what it does because of the software developement. For instance, Autronic does not have an air temp compensation table, but rather you are locked into the model Richard Albert designed based on a theortically perfect air pump. It is the level to which you can program the ECU that will determine how well it runs.
I think that for performance applications, the mass flow sensing for engine Load is an inhibitor to tuning and controlling the engine.
Last edited by Geoffrey; 11-03-2005 at 09:20 AM.
11-03-2005, 01:52 PM
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Folks everyone must pick a system that they can afford and choice a “Company or Person” that they are comfortable with in reaching a solution to your goals. If the 993TT is driven as a primary daily driver or basically a street car. There is no need to abandon the Bosch Motronics. Securing top notch tuning services is the key. With regards to Geoffrey’s statement about Autronic’s one has to realize that Geoffrey is a Motec dealer peddling his goods and services. John D should ask Geoffrey to step up to the plate and pay his financial support for Rennlist as many others have stepped up and done.
The situation with regards to Autronics distributor network has nothing to do with the product that you purchase, for Geoffrey has in the past “highly” recommended the Autronics system, you can do a search on this very site and read Geoffrey’s praise of the Autronics management system. However, Autronics has restructured it’s distribution network. Approved authorized Autronic dealers go directly to the source for product in Australia. Factory support and Training is required. What has happened in the past is that dealers would go around the country and setup sub-dealers, they sub-dealers would then go and sell product to end-users and other businesses. Geoffrey has been one of these un-authorized Autronics dealers selling Autronic product to Rennlister’s and others. The attitude of “Hey I sell Motec, but if the price is to high, I can sell you Autronics” is going to come to an end. Autronics is moving forward with its marketing practices and direct dealer distribution. The end result will be a stronger dealer supported product direct to the consumer.
A little history of Motec and Autronic. Two individuals started Motec 20 plus years ago. One of the partners, Richard Albert was the design engineer and handled the engineering and design of the Motec system. The other partner handled the marketing and management of the company. Like many thing in life, there was a split. Mr Albert went on to form Autronics.
The situation with regards to Autronics distributor network has nothing to do with the product that you purchase, for Geoffrey has in the past “highly” recommended the Autronics system, you can do a search on this very site and read Geoffrey’s praise of the Autronics management system. However, Autronics has restructured it’s distribution network. Approved authorized Autronic dealers go directly to the source for product in Australia. Factory support and Training is required. What has happened in the past is that dealers would go around the country and setup sub-dealers, they sub-dealers would then go and sell product to end-users and other businesses. Geoffrey has been one of these un-authorized Autronics dealers selling Autronic product to Rennlister’s and others. The attitude of “Hey I sell Motec, but if the price is to high, I can sell you Autronics” is going to come to an end. Autronics is moving forward with its marketing practices and direct dealer distribution. The end result will be a stronger dealer supported product direct to the consumer.
A little history of Motec and Autronic. Two individuals started Motec 20 plus years ago. One of the partners, Richard Albert was the design engineer and handled the engineering and design of the Motec system. The other partner handled the marketing and management of the company. Like many thing in life, there was a split. Mr Albert went on to form Autronics.
11-03-2005, 03:15 PM
#18
Originally Posted by red993tt
My Supra had AEM. Unfortunately,I don't think they have anything for 993tt.
Yes, of course, but what I am saying is that MoTech is a per-car install, and a custom AEM install would be the same thing. Just trying to dig a bit more if you have AEm experience, since I have an AEM ready for a 928 with boost.
11-03-2005, 06:37 PM
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Kevin & Geoffrey &others, apologies for opening a wound. I have owned cars with all three systems and thought question would be of interest to others as well. There are undoubtably strong(stronger) points with each system and the compromises in that choice need understanding.While my road cars will stay on Motronic I also own turbo race cars and need to stay on Motronic in the future.I am trying to understand what I might be missing out on,what can be done with the Motronic system and who is best equipped to do that. All of your information is greatly appreciated.
11-03-2005, 07:22 PM
#20
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In trying to understand Kevin's point about aftermarket ECUs vs Stock Motronics, I must have touched off some insecurities. Normally I would not respond to such a post, but since it is so inflammatory and not accurate, I feel I must respond. It is very true that I'm not a Rennlist Site Sponsor, and have no plans to become one. In fact, I'm only a Rennlist Member because another Rennlister gave me a 2 year subscription as a gift, for which I'm very thankful. So, if you want to call me out, you might as well tell John D. that I've never financially supported Rennlist and I should be banned. I just don't understand your point..
It is also true that I am a MoTeC dealer, listed on their dealer website http://www.motec.com/dealers.htm#New%20York for which I paid for the training, passed the evaluation and performance test, and work closely with them as one of the few that beta test new hardware and software. Unlike Autronic dealer requirements, I had to prove that I knew how to install and tune MoTeC equipment with a 3 day training class. As far as peddling my services, I hardly think my posts here have done that. In fact, I've supported Kevin's hybrid turbos more than peddled my MoTeC sales, I'm just not in the internet sales market.
Autronic has gone through some changes over the past year, including the 2 USA distributors leaving Autronic to sell other brands, thus effectively collapsing the dealer network. In the past, I've purchased ECUs from both distributors at dealer prices, as well as from Ray Hall in Australia which is currently the only Autronic distributor left. Does this make me an "unauthorized" dealer? I don't see Ultimate Motorwerks on the Autronic dealer website, so perhaps you are "unauthorized" as well? Customers can purchase Autronic equipment from the same direct source - Ray Hall turbochargers at the same price he sells the equipment to Kevin for, so when you say "direct to the customer", you aren't kidding. As far as factory training being required, EFI 101 from EFI University is the only requirement I am aware of, and it isn't enforced. EFI 101 does not teach you ECU specific information and since I helped put some of the EFI university training material together, I certainly feel that I meet the minimum qualifications to be an Autronic dealer. In fact, Kevin, you have yet to take your class, and I didn't see you in the 101 class in Redmond last month. Kevin has yet to install and tune a single ECU and is subbing out the tuning work for his 930 EFI kit I'm not even sure that Kevin has been on a dyno with a laptop tuning an engine on his own. So, I'm not sure the value of the Autronic dealer network, when the dealer doesn't need to know the Autronic software, know how to install a unit, or tune an engine. Where is the value add for the markup of the Autronic dealer when he cannot support the product once it has been sold simply due to a lack of knowledge and experience? This is the pervasive issue in the aftermarket ECU market that is why it receives such a bad reputation and is exactly why EFI University was established. Just like an ASE certification which establishes a standard of performance for auto mechanics, an EFI University certification establishes the industry standard for performance engine tuning.
I've also been a proponent of the Autronic SMC ECU as a low cost unit tailored for novices who want to get a car up and running and learn the basics of tuning with software that is easy to use for the basics. It does a good job at that and I've recommended it many times. However, their new SM4 is still in Beta, and of the 6 I've worked with 3 of them have not functioned properly so there are teething issues. The ECU case looks like it was made in high school shop class and not indicative of a high quality component. As long as you take it for what it is, and don't expect it work outside its limitations, it is a good product..MoTeC comparable alternative...Not!. As long as Richard owns Autronic and Ray Hall distributes the product, it will remain struggling to compete in the same market with Electromotive and Haltech and will not be found on Grand Am and ALMS racing cars. It simply is not a competitor in that market today, and doubt it ever will be. It is however, a good ECU for the novice, and on the 924S I use for the EFI Advanced class, I installed an Autronic ECU because it does that job well.
As I've said many times, my focus is on racing and that is where I sell MoTeC equipement, however, I always enjoy being on the dyno and will tune street cars as well. I've tuned over 100 cars in the past 2 years alone and have used ECUs from MoTeC, Autronic, AEM, Haltech, DTA, EFI Live, Accell Gen 7, Electromotive, to name only a few. I've taught over 200 students with EFI University this year alone, so I feel I'm in a fairly good position to objectively evaluate strengths and weaknesses of various ECUs as well as in understanding issues consumers are having in the aftermarket ECU marketplace. I sell MoTeC for the same reasons we drive Porsches - Product excellence in the marketplace!
I'm not sure the relevance of what happened 20 years ago when in 2005 Autronic is largely unchanged, developed by a guy in his basement where MoTeC has an entire research and development center in Australia, distributors on at least 5 continents, and full factory support at every major professional racing venue. The two are simply not even in the same target market. The fact that MoTeC's lowest cost ECU retails for less than an Autronic SMC does not support the "low cost alternative" you suggest in your post.
It is also true that I am a MoTeC dealer, listed on their dealer website http://www.motec.com/dealers.htm#New%20York for which I paid for the training, passed the evaluation and performance test, and work closely with them as one of the few that beta test new hardware and software. Unlike Autronic dealer requirements, I had to prove that I knew how to install and tune MoTeC equipment with a 3 day training class. As far as peddling my services, I hardly think my posts here have done that. In fact, I've supported Kevin's hybrid turbos more than peddled my MoTeC sales, I'm just not in the internet sales market.
Autronic has gone through some changes over the past year, including the 2 USA distributors leaving Autronic to sell other brands, thus effectively collapsing the dealer network. In the past, I've purchased ECUs from both distributors at dealer prices, as well as from Ray Hall in Australia which is currently the only Autronic distributor left. Does this make me an "unauthorized" dealer? I don't see Ultimate Motorwerks on the Autronic dealer website, so perhaps you are "unauthorized" as well? Customers can purchase Autronic equipment from the same direct source - Ray Hall turbochargers at the same price he sells the equipment to Kevin for, so when you say "direct to the customer", you aren't kidding. As far as factory training being required, EFI 101 from EFI University is the only requirement I am aware of, and it isn't enforced. EFI 101 does not teach you ECU specific information and since I helped put some of the EFI university training material together, I certainly feel that I meet the minimum qualifications to be an Autronic dealer. In fact, Kevin, you have yet to take your class, and I didn't see you in the 101 class in Redmond last month. Kevin has yet to install and tune a single ECU and is subbing out the tuning work for his 930 EFI kit I'm not even sure that Kevin has been on a dyno with a laptop tuning an engine on his own. So, I'm not sure the value of the Autronic dealer network, when the dealer doesn't need to know the Autronic software, know how to install a unit, or tune an engine. Where is the value add for the markup of the Autronic dealer when he cannot support the product once it has been sold simply due to a lack of knowledge and experience? This is the pervasive issue in the aftermarket ECU market that is why it receives such a bad reputation and is exactly why EFI University was established. Just like an ASE certification which establishes a standard of performance for auto mechanics, an EFI University certification establishes the industry standard for performance engine tuning.
I've also been a proponent of the Autronic SMC ECU as a low cost unit tailored for novices who want to get a car up and running and learn the basics of tuning with software that is easy to use for the basics. It does a good job at that and I've recommended it many times. However, their new SM4 is still in Beta, and of the 6 I've worked with 3 of them have not functioned properly so there are teething issues. The ECU case looks like it was made in high school shop class and not indicative of a high quality component. As long as you take it for what it is, and don't expect it work outside its limitations, it is a good product..MoTeC comparable alternative...Not!. As long as Richard owns Autronic and Ray Hall distributes the product, it will remain struggling to compete in the same market with Electromotive and Haltech and will not be found on Grand Am and ALMS racing cars. It simply is not a competitor in that market today, and doubt it ever will be. It is however, a good ECU for the novice, and on the 924S I use for the EFI Advanced class, I installed an Autronic ECU because it does that job well.
As I've said many times, my focus is on racing and that is where I sell MoTeC equipement, however, I always enjoy being on the dyno and will tune street cars as well. I've tuned over 100 cars in the past 2 years alone and have used ECUs from MoTeC, Autronic, AEM, Haltech, DTA, EFI Live, Accell Gen 7, Electromotive, to name only a few. I've taught over 200 students with EFI University this year alone, so I feel I'm in a fairly good position to objectively evaluate strengths and weaknesses of various ECUs as well as in understanding issues consumers are having in the aftermarket ECU marketplace. I sell MoTeC for the same reasons we drive Porsches - Product excellence in the marketplace!
I'm not sure the relevance of what happened 20 years ago when in 2005 Autronic is largely unchanged, developed by a guy in his basement where MoTeC has an entire research and development center in Australia, distributors on at least 5 continents, and full factory support at every major professional racing venue. The two are simply not even in the same target market. The fact that MoTeC's lowest cost ECU retails for less than an Autronic SMC does not support the "low cost alternative" you suggest in your post.
Last edited by Geoffrey; 11-03-2005 at 07:43 PM.
11-03-2005, 07:36 PM
#21
Nordschleife Master
Red,
All good questions, I'm glad you asked them. As far as who is best with Motronics, you need to be aware about the differences in year, etc. For instance, Todd, who I think is excellent with Motronics has different offerings as is shown in the difference between Jean's 3.8l and Ed's 3.8l, both built by Protomotive. Jean's is no longer OBDII compliant and uses an older ECU with pressure sensing rather than Mass Flow sensing. In Jean's case, the 964 ECU is no different than an aftermarket ECU like MoTeC, and the car is no longer OBDII compliant for federal regulations. I believe Ed's car is the stock ECU reprogrammed by Todd, similar to GIAC or Powertec, or Revo, or Gunther, or any of the other chip tuners out there. His car would be considered OBDII Compliant. Different strategies using Motronic, different considerations for using each apporach.
If you want to consider Motronic programming, my first stop would be Todd.
All good questions, I'm glad you asked them. As far as who is best with Motronics, you need to be aware about the differences in year, etc. For instance, Todd, who I think is excellent with Motronics has different offerings as is shown in the difference between Jean's 3.8l and Ed's 3.8l, both built by Protomotive. Jean's is no longer OBDII compliant and uses an older ECU with pressure sensing rather than Mass Flow sensing. In Jean's case, the 964 ECU is no different than an aftermarket ECU like MoTeC, and the car is no longer OBDII compliant for federal regulations. I believe Ed's car is the stock ECU reprogrammed by Todd, similar to GIAC or Powertec, or Revo, or Gunther, or any of the other chip tuners out there. His car would be considered OBDII Compliant. Different strategies using Motronic, different considerations for using each apporach.
If you want to consider Motronic programming, my first stop would be Todd.
11-03-2005, 07:41 PM
#22
Originally Posted by Geoffrey
I've tuned over 100 cars in the past 2 years alone and have used ECUs from MoTeC, Autronic, AEM, Haltech, DTA, EFI Live, Accell Gen 7, Electromotive, to name only a few. I've taught over 200 students with EFI University this year alone, so I feel I'm in a fairly good position to objectively evaluate strengths and weaknesses of various ECUs as well as in understanding issues consumers are having in the aftermarket ECU marketplace.
How would you compared DTA to AEM? These seem very even in the market today, with reference only to price/tunability, and I/O.
Hell, I have a megasquirt www.msefi.com ready for one of my cars, so I have a very open mind. I'm listening.
11-03-2005, 07:42 PM
#23
I saw "0" support for DTA when I looked before I bought an AEM. Still haven't used it and could sell it again without a loss, so please do share.
11-03-2005, 07:52 PM
#24
Nordschleife Master
AEM is interesting because they have been one of the first ECU manufacturers to offer plug and play capability. This overcomes the hurdle of building a wire harness which is a daunting task for most beginners. They also provide some decent base files for the customer to start with. Additionally they have good tech support. I find the software is overly complex and there are too many tables to adjust for a single function. For instance, to control idle, approximately 8 tables can affect the idle. I have found that the fueling is not all that consistent and can tend to hunt around but never be the same from day to day. All-in-all, I think it is doing what they set out to do and if you have a FNF car you'd probably buy it. If you are doing a custom installation, there are probably better choices in the same price range.
The only thing that could be better is the software and the table labeling/layout to help you understand what cells you are operating on. Early software used TPS for mapping with MAP compensation, I don't know what the latest software capability is.
Lets face it, it isn't all that hard to control fuel and ignition timing from a physics point of view. It is the software package and input/output control that makes it or breaks it.
The only thing that could be better is the software and the table labeling/layout to help you understand what cells you are operating on. Early software used TPS for mapping with MAP compensation, I don't know what the latest software capability is.
Lets face it, it isn't all that hard to control fuel and ignition timing from a physics point of view. It is the software package and input/output control that makes it or breaks it.
11-04-2005, 02:17 AM
#25
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Anyone that wants to email or PM me with regards to Geoffrey's statements, and many assumptions portrayed as his interpretation of facts are free to do so. The first chapter has not been written with regards to Autronic and my ability to tune a Porsche engine.
11-04-2005, 08:11 PM
#26
Originally Posted by Geoffrey
AEM is interesting because they have been one of the first ECU manufacturers to offer plug and play capability. This overcomes the hurdle of building a wire harness which is a daunting task for most beginners. They also provide some decent base files for the customer to start with. Additionally they have good tech support. I find the software is overly complex and there are too many tables to adjust for a single function. For instance, to control idle, approximately 8 tables can affect the idle. I have found that the fueling is not all that consistent and can tend to hunt around but never be the same from day to day. All-in-all, I think it is doing what they set out to do and if you have a FNF car you'd probably buy it. If you are doing a custom installation, there are probably better choices in the same price range.
The only thing that could be better is the software and the table labeling/layout to help you understand what cells you are operating on. Early software used TPS for mapping with MAP compensation, I don't know what the latest software capability is.
Lets face it, it isn't all that hard to control fuel and ignition timing from a physics point of view. It is the software package and input/output control that makes it or breaks it.
The only thing that could be better is the software and the table labeling/layout to help you understand what cells you are operating on. Early software used TPS for mapping with MAP compensation, I don't know what the latest software capability is.
Lets face it, it isn't all that hard to control fuel and ignition timing from a physics point of view. It is the software package and input/output control that makes it or breaks it.
Thanks for your comments. Is there a time I could call you to discuss this more. I have an AEM and could easily sell it and the dual channel WB02 that I bought with it for little less then I paid. My original plan was DTA but it just wasn't supported like I thought it would be. Maybe that is not so true now. I DO NOT have te budget to do a 10,000 dollar EFi install as I think MOTec is. The AEM 1040 unit was about 800 bucks and the WB dual channel thing was 300 extra. Quite good. No loom yet, but working with megasquirt, I have no qualms about the loom.
Its the "holding parameters" comment you made about AEM that is scarring me, as this will be for a daily driver.
Thanks
11-04-2005, 08:54 PM
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Brendan,
For DTA systems on Porsche try Wayne Seixas, at Tpgproducts.com (954)448-6258. He has helped me a lot on tuning with it.,I (imho) think DTA is the best outside of EFI or Motec,I have been running this system on a 993TT with 670hp at wheel,running without not even a hicup.,pm me if you like more imfo.,cheers,Sonny.
For DTA systems on Porsche try Wayne Seixas, at Tpgproducts.com (954)448-6258. He has helped me a lot on tuning with it.,I (imho) think DTA is the best outside of EFI or Motec,I have been running this system on a 993TT with 670hp at wheel,running without not even a hicup.,pm me if you like more imfo.,cheers,Sonny.
11-05-2005, 01:01 AM
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I read a lot of good things about DTA as well, many succesful British racing teams (Porsche and other) use it and support is outstanding.
I think in a nutshell, for a race car which will need continous changes t settings and parameters depending on track and race conditions, an EFI system is certainly more flexible. For a street car that sees the occasional DE, a Motronic provides an excellent combination of performance and safety. Obviously you need someone who knows how to tune it well.
I for one sure hope that Kevin is/will be outsourcing any Autronic work, and has enough time to do what he is unique at, the harware part of the puzzle of any engine. He can be a dealer and outsource the work to an independent who comes to his shop, he certainly does not need to do it himself, this is how most of the European houses operate succesfully.
I think in a nutshell, for a race car which will need continous changes t settings and parameters depending on track and race conditions, an EFI system is certainly more flexible. For a street car that sees the occasional DE, a Motronic provides an excellent combination of performance and safety. Obviously you need someone who knows how to tune it well.
I for one sure hope that Kevin is/will be outsourcing any Autronic work, and has enough time to do what he is unique at, the harware part of the puzzle of any engine. He can be a dealer and outsource the work to an independent who comes to his shop, he certainly does not need to do it himself, this is how most of the European houses operate succesfully.
11-05-2005, 01:44 AM
#29
Originally Posted by sonny1
Brendan,
For DTA systems on Porsche try Wayne Seixas, at Tpgproducts.com (954)448-6258. He has helped me a lot on tuning with it.,I (imho) think DTA is the best outside of EFI or Motec,I have been running this system on a 993TT with 670hp at wheel,running without not even a hicup.,pm me if you like more imfo.,cheers,Sonny.
For DTA systems on Porsche try Wayne Seixas, at Tpgproducts.com (954)448-6258. He has helped me a lot on tuning with it.,I (imho) think DTA is the best outside of EFI or Motec,I have been running this system on a 993TT with 670hp at wheel,running without not even a hicup.,pm me if you like more imfo.,cheers,Sonny.
Thanks Sonny. I think I need to go back to the drawing board.
11-05-2005, 02:55 AM
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Brendan - If you are interested in DTA I would contact Steve Weiner from this board. I know he has dealt with these systems on 911s before and his knowledge and willingness to help are simply amazing. If lack of support was the only thing holding you back then Steve should be able to change your outlook.