60-130 MPH: New performance measurement!
06-14-2006, 07:47 PM
#676
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Craig that was eloquently put,
I anxiously await Alex to provide more info (if he feels like it)
absolutely incredible cars, and not all that different (maybe even simpler)
than Your black beast which continues to amaze!!
Ed, You obviously know first hand (like Jean) what PROTO cars are capable of
at very low boost levels, let alone what Alex on C-16 is willing to try...
MK
I anxiously await Alex to provide more info (if he feels like it)
absolutely incredible cars, and not all that different (maybe even simpler)
than Your black beast which continues to amaze!!
Ed, You obviously know first hand (like Jean) what PROTO cars are capable of
at very low boost levels, let alone what Alex on C-16 is willing to try...
MK
06-15-2006, 02:22 AM
#677
Burning Brakes
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Craig,
Your post was a great opening argument, only surpassed by Machiavelli's, THE PRINCE.
The playing field is always challenged when something new to our experience comes along. The power to weight numbers indicated 1000 hp. to achieve the numbers posted. Why wouldn't that be questioned? We like evidence. Given the experience level of many on the board we're a tough jury, but a fair one. The fact that No ONE on 6speed questioned the numbers is testiment to why this thread was origionally started by Bill S. There was so much dyno hype, who could believe anything posted.
I've learned that there is always something faster as your only as good as your last race and not to make snap judgements when it comes to racing. It seems your client Alex has a purpose built rocket disguised as a street car, but therein lies the issue many Rennlister have. Most racing bodies and states have regulations and specifications that must be adheared to like emsisson, boost, weight etc. Alex has chose to defy any rules and test the limits. It is never easy nor cheap to be the first in this area and he should be commended.
So here is the question, If Alex had to compete in sanctoned competition what class would he race in?
That would be his competition.
Jimmy the fugitive
993tt 3.8 Andail aka Blackie
Your post was a great opening argument, only surpassed by Machiavelli's, THE PRINCE.
The playing field is always challenged when something new to our experience comes along. The power to weight numbers indicated 1000 hp. to achieve the numbers posted. Why wouldn't that be questioned? We like evidence. Given the experience level of many on the board we're a tough jury, but a fair one. The fact that No ONE on 6speed questioned the numbers is testiment to why this thread was origionally started by Bill S. There was so much dyno hype, who could believe anything posted.
I've learned that there is always something faster as your only as good as your last race and not to make snap judgements when it comes to racing. It seems your client Alex has a purpose built rocket disguised as a street car, but therein lies the issue many Rennlister have. Most racing bodies and states have regulations and specifications that must be adheared to like emsisson, boost, weight etc. Alex has chose to defy any rules and test the limits. It is never easy nor cheap to be the first in this area and he should be commended.
So here is the question, If Alex had to compete in sanctoned competition what class would he race in?
That would be his competition.
Jimmy the fugitive
993tt 3.8 Andail aka Blackie
06-15-2006, 06:03 AM
#679
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Originally Posted by Craig.
5. I found it particularly amusing that, after disbelieving Alex’s 4.4 time, then being forced to face the reality that the time is accurate, one or more Rennlist members then predicted that Alex’s engine will self-destruct in a matter of minutes (in other words, denial followed by disparagement).
), particularly in terms of expensive engine rebuilds.There are a few tuners who have the capability of building these very high hp engines but the reason they don't is that when the power is used it stretches the metal and severely reduces the life of the motor. (As I have said to actually build a 1000hp 996tt which holds together for even 15-20 second runs is a massive achievement). You use the word "disparagement" which means "disrespectful" -mate, this has nothing to do with being disrespectful -we are discussing technical stuff here, if you want respect there is another forum 
Originally Posted by Craig.
The facts appear to suggest otherwise. Alex has put over 10,000 miles on the car of VERY HARD DRIVING, including countless WOT runs, sustained high speed driving through the desert (including in several organized events), several track events (including both road courses and ¼ mile tracks), and several organized races (including both from a stop and a rolling start). He drives his car harder than anyone I know. Yet, his car recently passed a thorough inspection and testing, and continues to run like new. IMHO, comparisons to race car engines are not germane, as these engine incorporate certain specialized components (e.g., titanium valves) that contribute to the limited life span of the engine -- Alex’s engine does not use such components.
Would love to hear Todd K's view
Originally Posted by Craig.
6. It appears to me that certain Rennlist members are so strongly biased towards European tuners, such as Ruf and RS Tuning, that they have difficulty accepting positive performance figures generated by American tuners -- particularly performance figures that exceed those achieved by European tuners. The RT12 is an awesome car, but is NOT the end-all, be-all, performance benchmark. RS Tuning builds some amazing cars, as do many other well-established European tuners. However, there are also several American tuners who are doing equally impressive things with 996TTs. The European tuners do not have a monopoly on Porsche tuning.
06-15-2006, 06:14 AM
#680
Originally Posted by Craig.
6. It appears to me that certain Rennlist members are so strongly biased towards European tuners, such as Ruf and RS Tuning, that they have difficulty accepting positive performance figures generated by American tuners -- particularly performance figures that exceed those achieved by European tuners. The RT12 is an awesome car, but is NOT the end-all, be-all, performance benchmark. RS Tuning builds some amazing cars, as do many other well-established European tuners. However, there are also several American tuners who are doing equally impressive things with 996TTs. The European tuners do not have a monopoly on Porsche tuning.
Craig
Craig
06-15-2006, 08:53 AM
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As much as I hate (well maybe I don't 
) entering this debate since many of you guys are my very well respected and liked friends, I need to throw in a few lines because of how far this has drifted.
To recap, this thread is about performance runs and how HP translates into numbers, nothing to do with US vs Europe, nothing to do with longevity of an engine, nothing to do with names of tuners, and nothing to do with which class the car would run on the track, or how much nicer it is to drive at 20mph. Pure performance figures and how they relate to HP.
Alex has been 100% open about everything including having the data dissecated by the builders of the tool. Full transparency. He has important personal reasons that make him want to remain secretive about things in his setup or quartermile time and trap speed. No other reason. BTW, I don't think he has ever disclosed a 160mph trap speed with his car, nor any other number that is, other than he ran a 9s ET. It is people like me who love to speculate who throw in numbers left and right.
Turning this debate into a US vs Europe one is irrelevant, worse yet, turning it into a Rennlist vs. 6Speed, or 6Bling (this is an affectionate name nothing else)is completely inappropriate. Just as well, I believe that how long this car would last under full boost is also irrelevant to this particular thread.
I don't think it would ever sustain >1.5 Bar for a minute, nor would any other TT engine, but no one has claimed that. The question is who needs it
I have driven the autobahn with my car and been under full boost at <1 Bar for less than 15 seconds and had to let go since I was at 190mph already. At 1.5 Bar I would have hit the wall in no time. Get a Hayabusa if what you are after is top speed. Stummel excepted that is! 
Run it under the same conditions as all other properly "tuned" 996s, it will last just as long, the difference is in the option of having a 1.9 Bar switch at your finger tips should you require it. You are expected to be a mature adult and know what you are risking when you order a car like this one, and also have a basic understanding of how heat can melt an engine and act consequently.
Also, this car is a daily driver and grocery getter, I don't think we can argue from behind our key boards, if the owner and everyone else who has driven it is saying it is. This is what Alex D. requested and he would not have paid if it was not the case, would he?
Now where are the runs? Where are the 3.8TT Andial (maybe not Jim the felon), where are the RUF 993s (i.e. the black one with shaved gutters), or RT12, Imagineauto, EVOMS, Sportec, PSI, FVD, UltimateMotorwerks, Gemballa, Techart, Weltmeister, 9Meister etc...street cars? I am talking about the fastest in their stables not the middle ones..Add 2 seconds to this run if you wish, it is still a 6.4 second 60-130mph. 
Say it is a 3000lbs car, it is still the fastest seen isn't it?
DKnebes, Bill S., EdPurplett and Rob are the only ones who expressed wanting to do runs with my AX22, I will send it out guys, sorry for the delay.
) entering this debate since many of you guys are my very well respected and liked friends, I need to throw in a few lines because of how far this has drifted.To recap, this thread is about performance runs and how HP translates into numbers, nothing to do with US vs Europe, nothing to do with longevity of an engine, nothing to do with names of tuners, and nothing to do with which class the car would run on the track, or how much nicer it is to drive at 20mph. Pure performance figures and how they relate to HP.
Alex has been 100% open about everything including having the data dissecated by the builders of the tool. Full transparency. He has important personal reasons that make him want to remain secretive about things in his setup or quartermile time and trap speed. No other reason. BTW, I don't think he has ever disclosed a 160mph trap speed with his car, nor any other number that is, other than he ran a 9s ET. It is people like me who love to speculate who throw in numbers left and right.
Turning this debate into a US vs Europe one is irrelevant, worse yet, turning it into a Rennlist vs. 6Speed, or 6Bling (this is an affectionate name nothing else)is completely inappropriate. Just as well, I believe that how long this car would last under full boost is also irrelevant to this particular thread.
I don't think it would ever sustain >1.5 Bar for a minute, nor would any other TT engine, but no one has claimed that. The question is who needs it
I have driven the autobahn with my car and been under full boost at <1 Bar for less than 15 seconds and had to let go since I was at 190mph already. At 1.5 Bar I would have hit the wall in no time. Get a Hayabusa if what you are after is top speed. Stummel excepted that is! Run it under the same conditions as all other properly "tuned" 996s, it will last just as long, the difference is in the option of having a 1.9 Bar switch at your finger tips should you require it. You are expected to be a mature adult and know what you are risking when you order a car like this one, and also have a basic understanding of how heat can melt an engine and act consequently.
Also, this car is a daily driver and grocery getter, I don't think we can argue from behind our key boards, if the owner and everyone else who has driven it is saying it is. This is what Alex D. requested and he would not have paid if it was not the case, would he?
Now where are the runs? Where are the 3.8TT Andial (maybe not Jim the felon
), where are the RUF 993s (i.e. the black one with shaved gutters), or RT12, Imagineauto, EVOMS, Sportec, PSI, FVD, UltimateMotorwerks, Gemballa, Techart, Weltmeister, 9Meister etc...street cars? I am talking about the fastest in their stables not the middle ones..Add 2 seconds to this run if you wish, it is still a 6.4 second 60-130mph. Say it is a 3000lbs car, it is still the fastest seen isn't it?DKnebes, Bill S., EdPurplett and Rob are the only ones who expressed wanting to do runs with my AX22, I will send it out guys, sorry for the delay.
06-15-2006, 10:28 AM
#682
Burning Brakes
Very well said Craig and Jean. If there is anyone within spitting distance of Michigan I would be willing to "rent" your AX 22 to post some times for an Evoms GT700.
Thanks!
Thanks!
06-15-2006, 09:02 PM
#683
Originally Posted by TB993tt
I am interested in finding the truth about how much power can be extracted and what are the trade offs for having that much power.
Originally Posted by TB993tt
You use the word "disparagement" which means "disrespectful" -mate, this has nothing to do with being disrespectful -we are discussing technical stuff here, . . . Like I said, my belief is that Stummel would break it in a couple of minutes - 60 seconds at 1.9 bar in 6th gear = bang (and Craig I am not being disparageful or telling anyone they have a small appendage here, based on rebuild/hours needed on ~700hp race engines, I just can't make the numbers work)
Would love to hear Todd K's view
Would love to hear Todd K's view
Originally Posted by TB993tt
other US tuners ? lets see some convincing AX22 runs please
I assure you that I will post some AX22 numbers as soon as I get my car back (hopefully tomorrow) and completed (I have a couple of additional mods planned in the next couple of weeks), and I learn how to work the AX22. FWIW, EVOMS did a 60-130 run yesterday on my car in 109 degree weather, without the tuning having been completed (in particular, the rev limiter increase has not been accomplished), and according to them, the AX22 number was very encouraging. I will not publish the precise number unless and until I personally replicate it, such that I can post a chart and supply a file to Jean, but I will tell you that, according to EVOMS, the number before the decimal was a 5 (given that my turbos are considerably smaller than Alex's, I do not expect to achieve a time anywhere near his). Caveat: I am NOT claiming this performance figure unless and until I confirm it myself, so no need to flame me just yet.
Craig
06-16-2006, 05:59 AM
#684
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Originally Posted by Craig.
A worthwhile inquiry!!
I interpreted your prediction that Alex's engine would likely implode in the near future as disparaging. To the extent that it was not so intended, I apologize. I too would enjoy hearing Todd's input (I spoke with him today about unrelated matters).
As far as confirmed performance figures, an EVOMS car ran a 10.3 1/4 mile at 140 mph. I personally believe that is very "convincing" (borrowing your words).
I assure you that I will post some AX22 numbers as soon as I get my car back (hopefully tomorrow) and completed (I have a couple of additional mods planned in the next couple of weeks), and I learn how to work the AX22. FWIW, EVOMS did a 60-130 run yesterday on my car in 109 degree weather, without the tuning having been completed (in particular, the rev limiter increase has not been accomplished), and according to them, the AX22 number was very encouraging. I will not publish the precise number unless and until I personally replicate it, such that I can post a chart and supply a file to Jean, but I will tell you that, according to EVOMS, the number before the decimal was a 5 (given that my turbos are considerably smaller than Alex's, I do not expect to achieve a time anywhere near his). Caveat: I am NOT claiming this performance figure unless and until I confirm it myself, so no need to flame me just yet.
Craig
I interpreted your prediction that Alex's engine would likely implode in the near future as disparaging. To the extent that it was not so intended, I apologize. I too would enjoy hearing Todd's input (I spoke with him today about unrelated matters).
As far as confirmed performance figures, an EVOMS car ran a 10.3 1/4 mile at 140 mph. I personally believe that is very "convincing" (borrowing your words).
I assure you that I will post some AX22 numbers as soon as I get my car back (hopefully tomorrow) and completed (I have a couple of additional mods planned in the next couple of weeks), and I learn how to work the AX22. FWIW, EVOMS did a 60-130 run yesterday on my car in 109 degree weather, without the tuning having been completed (in particular, the rev limiter increase has not been accomplished), and according to them, the AX22 number was very encouraging. I will not publish the precise number unless and until I personally replicate it, such that I can post a chart and supply a file to Jean, but I will tell you that, according to EVOMS, the number before the decimal was a 5 (given that my turbos are considerably smaller than Alex's, I do not expect to achieve a time anywhere near his). Caveat: I am NOT claiming this performance figure unless and until I confirm it myself, so no need to flame me just yet.
Craig
06-16-2006, 02:53 PM
#685
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Response from Builder as requested by many :)
1. Alex's engine produces 650hp at the crank at only .85 bar, and runs competitive 1/4 mile times to the other tuners cars at a mere 1-1.1 bar We don't run the ridiculous boost levels that you see on many other tuners cars. We strive instead for high efficiency at the lower pressures.
2. In response to reliability:
We initially assumed the same as well. However, it's proven itsself to be incredibly reliable. We have altered the metallurgy of the internals such as the liners from Aluminum to Ductile Iron, and played some pretty fancy games with head sealing issues.
Alex drove the car from Las Vegas to Willow Springs for a weekend event, drove the car at high boost for 3 days at the event, then drove home. I believe there's footage of him pulling on the Lamborghinin F1 car at that event. He was running over 180mph on the front straight, which is just unheard of.
The car was delivered nearly a year ago. He has over 10,000 miles on the car since delivery. Most of it abusive ;p
The car has been driven in the end phase of the Gumball Rallye in the US, Lord knows how many street races, top speed desert runs, etc.
The proof is in the product, and it's out there proving itsself daily...
3. They have quite the different mentality in Germany...
We were initially asked to produce an engine that would run 2.0 bar and produce approx. 1200hp. Things like this are always taken with a grain of salt... We said we'd see where it was happy.
When running the engine, the numbers were amazing. With the current components it's at the limits of many of it's pieces, and to go beyond that point would require ground up re-engineering and a loss of much of it's flexibility.
We ended up with an engine that idles like stock, drives around like stock, can cruise the boulevards, but run down an F1 car on track days and do that weekend after weekend.
We didn't make it to the initial request, because we felt that the flexibility of this package was too outstanding to lose by going that extra bit. And the loss of reliability for an extra 20% on top was not the intention of this package.
Thank you.
Todd Knighton
Protomotive Inc.
We don't run the ridiculous boost levels that you see on many other tuners cars. We strive instead for high efficiency at the lower pressures.2. In response to reliability:
We initially assumed the same as well. However, it's proven itsself to be incredibly reliable. We have altered the metallurgy of the internals such as the liners from Aluminum to Ductile Iron, and played some pretty fancy games with head sealing issues.
Alex drove the car from Las Vegas to Willow Springs for a weekend event, drove the car at high boost for 3 days at the event, then drove home. I believe there's footage of him pulling on the Lamborghinin F1 car at that event. He was running over 180mph on the front straight, which is just unheard of.
The car was delivered nearly a year ago. He has over 10,000 miles on the car since delivery. Most of it abusive ;p
The car has been driven in the end phase of the Gumball Rallye in the US, Lord knows how many street races, top speed desert runs, etc.
The proof is in the product, and it's out there proving itsself daily...
3. They have quite the different mentality in Germany...
We were initially asked to produce an engine that would run 2.0 bar and produce approx. 1200hp. Things like this are always taken with a grain of salt... We said we'd see where it was happy.
When running the engine, the numbers were amazing. With the current components it's at the limits of many of it's pieces, and to go beyond that point would require ground up re-engineering and a loss of much of it's flexibility.
We ended up with an engine that idles like stock, drives around like stock, can cruise the boulevards, but run down an F1 car on track days and do that weekend after weekend.
We didn't make it to the initial request, because we felt that the flexibility of this package was too outstanding to lose by going that extra bit. And the loss of reliability for an extra 20% on top was not the intention of this package.
Thank you.
Todd Knighton
Protomotive Inc.
06-17-2006, 03:13 AM
#687
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Well, I think that answers it concerning reliability and performance, real life examples of what this car has gone through without ever experiencing failure other than many broken axles.
The reason it did not win any of these races and events is because of Alex's poor driving skills (Trying to have Alex chime in too) ..Just kidding, in fact I have not heard of it loosing to any other car yet?
The challenge now becomes Stummel v. Alex...and the big question is...who can abuse a car more???
Thanks Todd for coming out here personally amidst this debate, and hope you stay around for a while.
The reason it did not win any of these races and events is because of Alex's poor driving skills (Trying to have Alex chime in too
) ..Just kidding, in fact I have not heard of it loosing to any other car yet?The challenge now becomes Stummel v. Alex...and the big question is...who can abuse a car more???
Thanks Todd for coming out here personally amidst this debate, and hope you stay around for a while.
06-17-2006, 07:08 AM
#688
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if you guys are concerned about reliability and want a fast car then try to get one like the Alzen Turbo which broke every record in Nurburgring till now and is faster than the factory DTM Audi and Mercedes. The car proved the reliability on the engine and sinc e they updated the gearbox the only way to slow done the car was to reduce the booost.
Now it should run with only 0.8 bar boost.
Finaly the car is sold to Dubai. It makes no sense to arce it with only 0.8 bar boost. At 0,95 was still faster than factory 996 RSR and the other factory cars.
Any street car over 600 HP will blow on the autobahn after some min and thats for sure but WHEN and where you can stay on WOT for more than 1 min! ???
With a fast car you are already driving 300 km/h and did ever one of you took a long corner at 300 km/h?
This is when the autobahn that was straight all the time, sudenly has corners.
My opinion is that if a car last 10 runs at WOT for 1 min then it is ok for every day driving.
Racing is different since the car do not have the time to cool down.
So if the car has 10000 miles then it last for sure!
At this power you should rebuild the engine after 10000 miles anyway, or at leats check the bearings , rings and head.
If it does not need rebuild , then the engine is not build to the limit.
Konstantin
Now it should run with only 0.8 bar boost.
Finaly the car is sold to Dubai. It makes no sense to arce it with only 0.8 bar boost. At 0,95 was still faster than factory 996 RSR and the other factory cars.
Any street car over 600 HP will blow on the autobahn after some min and thats for sure but WHEN and where you can stay on WOT for more than 1 min! ???
With a fast car you are already driving 300 km/h and did ever one of you took a long corner at 300 km/h?
This is when the autobahn that was straight all the time, sudenly has corners.
My opinion is that if a car last 10 runs at WOT for 1 min then it is ok for every day driving.
Racing is different since the car do not have the time to cool down.
So if the car has 10000 miles then it last for sure!
At this power you should rebuild the engine after 10000 miles anyway, or at leats check the bearings , rings and head.
If it does not need rebuild , then the engine is not build to the limit.
Konstantin
06-17-2006, 10:06 AM
#689
Originally Posted by Protomotive
We don't run the ridiculous boost levels that you see on many other tuners cars. We strive instead for high efficiency at the lower pressures.
Shame so few have undestood the benefits of this approach..
06-17-2006, 01:07 PM
#690
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Having observed the amazing gear changing illustrated by Alex's banzai 60-130 run I zoomed in on what my pathetic changes were contributing. For benchmark (for gearchanging using a clutch ) The second graph is the change done by Phil Hindley in MOD's car, (Phil is a very successful Porsche racer currently campaigning a 997 Cup car) I observed his changing and it was quick to the point of "almost" beating the synchros with a slight mechanical click as the gear was pushed home (sorry MOD 
)
The graphs show the speed of the cars slowing down as fith gear is taken. My change (first below) takes about 0.37s and the car loses 0.5mph, Phil's takes 0.23s and loses 0.2mph
OK small increments but if I started the 60-130 in 2nd I could lose nearly half a second in the 3 changes together with the accompanying loss of momentum.
Any tips from the hot shots out there ?
Edit My car also has a Techart short shift (2WD) so I guess that makes my effort even worse
) The second graph is the change done by Phil Hindley in MOD's car, (Phil is a very successful Porsche racer currently campaigning a 997 Cup car) I observed his changing and it was quick to the point of "almost" beating the synchros with a slight mechanical click as the gear was pushed home (sorry MOD )The graphs show the speed of the cars slowing down as fith gear is taken. My change (first below) takes about 0.37s and the car loses 0.5mph, Phil's takes 0.23s and loses 0.2mph
OK small increments but if I started the 60-130 in 2nd I could lose nearly half a second in the 3 changes together with the accompanying loss of momentum.
Any tips from the hot shots out there ?
Edit My car also has a Techart short shift (2WD) so I guess that makes my effort even worse
Last edited by TB993tt; 06-18-2006 at 08:58 AM.