Tiptronic Supercharger Project - data logging begins
Rennlist Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 12,230
Likes: 104
From: Chicago
ha ha, I certainly hope that's not true. I'd expect Todd is giving you customized tuning for your setup, which is definitely not the same as a Proto TT stg 2. I wouldn't dream of running a s/c with TT stg2 tuning even for 2 miles. You should have sent him plots of power, tq, boost, and AFR. Each of those 4 things is needed or he won't be able to do his job properly. It's easy for him to tweak his tuning, so he should give you a customized chip. That's how he and I worked together. Anything less and you're playing with a grenade.
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,544
Likes: 5
From: Brisbane, Australia
I haven't seen any plots of AFR on this thread. Have you checked they are 11.5 or richer at WOT? Fuel is critical. To some extent the WOT timing will look after itself as the knock sensor will instruct the DME to pull timing which is OK in the short term. But, this will also mean the power curve is more unstable. Normally you would check this on a dyno. At the very least the timing should be retarded above 3 to 4 psi boost, linearly with the increase in boost.
Agree with the other eric
Agree with the other eric
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 978
Likes: 69
From: Hong Kong, Perth, Western Australia
Sorry - Protomotive stage 2 turbo system software with stage 1 timing - that's what it is.
I figure I need some guages to monitor things properly. So more to come soon.
Seats finished. Hope fully steering wheel next week and I'll be talking to the auto trimmers next week.
I figure I need some guages to monitor things properly. So more to come soon.
Seats finished. Hope fully steering wheel next week and I'll be talking to the auto trimmers next week.
Instructor
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 155
Likes: 1
From: uk
Hi haygeebaby,
its been a while but thought I would chip in. For me removing the chargecooler and adding the a/w was a big step forwards in responsiveness as well as reduced SC power required to push the air through the chargecooler. The SC runs cooler. Before I ran a/w after the SC now I run it before the SC (40k miles no issues). Its a great way to go on our tips. Also the cold air intact reduces IAT and head temperature leading to retard in stop start traffic. Its not that hot here but still worth while. Retard is really bad for our SC head temperatures :-(. I've also done some fluid modelling which shows that for each bend ahead of the SC we lose about 1/2lb intake pressure at full power/high rpm. I couldnt change the SC intake due to space but I have straightened everything ahead of the throttle to get a little extra air in :-)
I really recommend a cold air intake, its made so much difference on mine.
Done all this at about 35k miles a few years back and now at about 100k, still brings a smile to my face everytime I hit the pedal.
Now at the point that I dont watch the detonation output from the ECU on each run and just keep an eye that the w/a bottle still has fluid in it :-)
Just thought I would share my experience.
Cheers, Mark.
its been a while but thought I would chip in. For me removing the chargecooler and adding the a/w was a big step forwards in responsiveness as well as reduced SC power required to push the air through the chargecooler. The SC runs cooler. Before I ran a/w after the SC now I run it before the SC (40k miles no issues). Its a great way to go on our tips. Also the cold air intact reduces IAT and head temperature leading to retard in stop start traffic. Its not that hot here but still worth while. Retard is really bad for our SC head temperatures :-(. I've also done some fluid modelling which shows that for each bend ahead of the SC we lose about 1/2lb intake pressure at full power/high rpm. I couldnt change the SC intake due to space but I have straightened everything ahead of the throttle to get a little extra air in :-)
I really recommend a cold air intake, its made so much difference on mine.
Done all this at about 35k miles a few years back and now at about 100k, still brings a smile to my face everytime I hit the pedal.
Now at the point that I dont watch the detonation output from the ECU on each run and just keep an eye that the w/a bottle still has fluid in it :-)
Just thought I would share my experience.
Cheers, Mark.
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 978
Likes: 69
From: Hong Kong, Perth, Western Australia
Thx Mark. Nice to hear from you again. I read through your threads before I decided to take off the charge cooler. I can confirm some of your findings as well.
What I'm looking for is a nice air box.
Anyone know where you can get this for a cheaper price?
http://www.gmpperformance.com/index....ail&PID=203179
What I'm looking for is a nice air box.
Anyone know where you can get this for a cheaper price?
http://www.gmpperformance.com/index....ail&PID=203179
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 978
Likes: 69
From: Hong Kong, Perth, Western Australia
Mark
Question for you mate - I'm looking at a pic of your configuration. Your setup does not have the intake elbow on it. What did you do with the ISV? What do you have configured between the throttle body and the air filter?
TIA
Ken
Question for you mate - I'm looking at a pic of your configuration. Your setup does not have the intake elbow on it. What did you do with the ISV? What do you have configured between the throttle body and the air filter?
TIA
Ken
Rennlist Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 12,230
Likes: 104
From: Chicago
And I have to wonder if you have a fueling problem after killing your spark plugs so quickly.
Instructor
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 155
Likes: 1
From: uk
Hi Ken,
I created a feed before the throttle body into the ISV but after the afm and put the ISV above the SC intake on a bracket. I also have the IAT sensor before the throttle body. Of the various other pipes that fed into the elbow all feed into the same pre throttle point besides the oil tank breather which I have chosen to vent as per RS cars I believe?. Others have had issues with sump pressure on turbo'd cars so decided not to take a chance with a catch tank.
Sorry about the picture its the best I could take.
Forgot to say before I've not tried this with a 2.4" pulley (not sure I would go there) but currently running a 2.6" pulley on standard ecu chip and TPC software with my own 7th injector numbers. Due to cylinder AFR variations with the single 7th injector I maintain an average 12 AFM on the LM1 WB. I get about 1/2 AFR difference between the banks which you can see on the LM1. Cannot desern between cylinders as expected but I tried to avoid any one cylinder going into the 13s. Checking my spark plugs they are all near the same temperature and colour without any signs of detonation.
Mark.
I created a feed before the throttle body into the ISV but after the afm and put the ISV above the SC intake on a bracket. I also have the IAT sensor before the throttle body. Of the various other pipes that fed into the elbow all feed into the same pre throttle point besides the oil tank breather which I have chosen to vent as per RS cars I believe?. Others have had issues with sump pressure on turbo'd cars so decided not to take a chance with a catch tank.
Sorry about the picture its the best I could take.
Forgot to say before I've not tried this with a 2.4" pulley (not sure I would go there) but currently running a 2.6" pulley on standard ecu chip and TPC software with my own 7th injector numbers. Due to cylinder AFR variations with the single 7th injector I maintain an average 12 AFM on the LM1 WB. I get about 1/2 AFR difference between the banks which you can see on the LM1. Cannot desern between cylinders as expected but I tried to avoid any one cylinder going into the 13s. Checking my spark plugs they are all near the same temperature and colour without any signs of detonation.
Mark.
Last edited by MPB993; Jul 8, 2012 at 04:41 AM.
Rennlist Stories
The Best Porsche Posts for Porsche Enthusiasts
Porsche's Top 5 Most Questionable Naming Decisions
Verdad Gallardo
Pogea Racing's 964 Porsche 911 Reimagination Stands Out in a Crowded Field
Verdad Gallardo
6 Convertible Top MYTHS Most People Don't Understand!
Michael S. Palmer
2026 Porsche 911 Club Coupe is Spectacular, And Everything Wrong with the Porsche Market
Joe Kucinski
Talos Takes Your 991 Porsche 911 GT3 to the Next Level for a Cool $1.13 Million
Verdad Gallardo
9 Vehicles Porsche Helped Engineer that Aren't Porsches
Verdad Gallardo
9 Features and Characteristics That Only Porsche People Understand
Verdad Gallardo
I've Written 500 Rennlist Articles: Here's How Porsche Has Changed Along the Way
Joe Kucinski
10 Most Unnecessary Porsches Ever Built (And Why We Love Them)
Verdad Gallardo
Instructor
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 131
Likes: 3
From: Devon, UK
Hi Ken,
If you havn't bought one already , i would recommend at a minimum an innovate LM-1 AFR data logger. The latest LM-2 would be the best. With these you can plug in RPM and boost and log it all. ( Will end up cheaper than dyno sessions in the long run)
I am using a LM-1 on my 930 Turbo to adjust my fuelling, it works very well and gives you the comfort of knowing you are not running lean (12 AFR and above.)
If i may chip in and say hold off on the extra mods with the SC, get it set up properly first with the right AFR's, then add in your water injection, intercooler etc. Yes this will be more expensive, but if done stage by stage with a known quantity from the start you will be able to identify any issues and also note the mods that give benefits.
With your current set up without water meth and standard pulley my 993 did pull 355 flywheel BHP, this should atleast be a starting point. Without the intercooler i had 340 bhp but was running rich, the intercooler helped the richness and added BHP without the additional tuning. The Uni Q was not all that good.
In the end i had a tuner who used an emulator and adjusted my Motronic ECU to get the right fuelling, it wasn't perfect but it was much better than the Uni Q as it was done on the road whilst driving not on a dyno. (Uni Q was still in line and motronic was adjusted to give the better Fuel map)
All this with standard fuel regulator and standard injectors, my fuelling was 11.9 AFR at its leanest. The car ran strong with no issues at all.
Good luck Ken.
TIM
1988 930 Targa Turbo
If you havn't bought one already , i would recommend at a minimum an innovate LM-1 AFR data logger. The latest LM-2 would be the best. With these you can plug in RPM and boost and log it all. ( Will end up cheaper than dyno sessions in the long run)
I am using a LM-1 on my 930 Turbo to adjust my fuelling, it works very well and gives you the comfort of knowing you are not running lean (12 AFR and above.)
If i may chip in and say hold off on the extra mods with the SC, get it set up properly first with the right AFR's, then add in your water injection, intercooler etc. Yes this will be more expensive, but if done stage by stage with a known quantity from the start you will be able to identify any issues and also note the mods that give benefits.
With your current set up without water meth and standard pulley my 993 did pull 355 flywheel BHP, this should atleast be a starting point. Without the intercooler i had 340 bhp but was running rich, the intercooler helped the richness and added BHP without the additional tuning. The Uni Q was not all that good.
In the end i had a tuner who used an emulator and adjusted my Motronic ECU to get the right fuelling, it wasn't perfect but it was much better than the Uni Q as it was done on the road whilst driving not on a dyno. (Uni Q was still in line and motronic was adjusted to give the better Fuel map)
All this with standard fuel regulator and standard injectors, my fuelling was 11.9 AFR at its leanest. The car ran strong with no issues at all.
Good luck Ken.
TIM
1988 930 Targa Turbo
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 978
Likes: 69
From: Hong Kong, Perth, Western Australia
Yo Tim - great to see you online. I got a Zeitronix ZT-2 kit with the works sitting here right now waiting for install. I will get it installed with the RS carpet that has yet to be ordered. Hope all is well with the turbo.
Steering wheel installed. But forgot to order the tip harness for a 94 car.
Steering wheel installed. But forgot to order the tip harness for a 94 car.
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 978
Likes: 69
From: Hong Kong, Perth, Western Australia
Some updates in the last few weeks.
Dash, door trim, and rs door panels ready to be sent off to be covered in black alcantara with silver stitch.
Finally installed the tiptronic harness for the flappy paddle steering wheel. The steering wheel has been a great addition.
Zeitronic unit installed. Boost and AFR modules connected. Still have to do EGT and 2 air temp sensors. But will need some custom pipe work to be made to get this completed.
Here is some interesting data - running the 2.4" pulley and not having the charge cooler installed - I have seen 13psi. The new setup will have custom pipe work and a new and improved charge cooler and meth injection system installed. I hope to see around 7 to 9 psi with the new configuration. 13psi is a little too high.
RS carpet has been ordered and I think I might get one of those porsche retro decks and ditch the alpine unit which looks a little out of place at times.
Car is also booked in to a performance transmission expert next month who will upgrade some internals and strengthen things as well.
Dash, door trim, and rs door panels ready to be sent off to be covered in black alcantara with silver stitch.
Finally installed the tiptronic harness for the flappy paddle steering wheel. The steering wheel has been a great addition.
Zeitronic unit installed. Boost and AFR modules connected. Still have to do EGT and 2 air temp sensors. But will need some custom pipe work to be made to get this completed.
Here is some interesting data - running the 2.4" pulley and not having the charge cooler installed - I have seen 13psi. The new setup will have custom pipe work and a new and improved charge cooler and meth injection system installed. I hope to see around 7 to 9 psi with the new configuration. 13psi is a little too high.
RS carpet has been ordered and I think I might get one of those porsche retro decks and ditch the alpine unit which looks a little out of place at times.
Car is also booked in to a performance transmission expert next month who will upgrade some internals and strengthen things as well.
Instructor
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 131
Likes: 3
From: Devon, UK
Ken,
Like what you have done to the car so far, love the steering wheel.
Is there a company Aus that sells the barrel intercoolers? I think they are made by PWR. These look quite trick and have heard good results from them.
http://www.thor-racing.co.uk/Charge_Coolers-291.asp
930 Turbo is running great thanks, having new headers fitted tomorrow.
cheers
TIM
Like what you have done to the car so far, love the steering wheel.
Is there a company Aus that sells the barrel intercoolers? I think they are made by PWR. These look quite trick and have heard good results from them.
http://www.thor-racing.co.uk/Charge_Coolers-291.asp
930 Turbo is running great thanks, having new headers fitted tomorrow.
cheers
TIM
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 978
Likes: 69
From: Hong Kong, Perth, Western Australia
The RS carpet is almost done.
The alcantara covered parts have been at the upholsterers store for over a month.
I just havent had the time to even pick them up or check if they have completed them.
New larger more efficient heat exchange going in soon. Same setup as Marc Shaws - which I think is the most efficient setup I have seen.
Custom made pipe work for the chargecooler scheduled for this month.
Bungs for additional meth injector and two air temp sensors are going in with the pipe work.
Also new carbon air filter going in.
The alcantara covered parts have been at the upholsterers store for over a month.
I just havent had the time to even pick them up or check if they have completed them.
New larger more efficient heat exchange going in soon. Same setup as Marc Shaws - which I think is the most efficient setup I have seen.
Custom made pipe work for the chargecooler scheduled for this month.
Bungs for additional meth injector and two air temp sensors are going in with the pipe work.
Also new carbon air filter going in.
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 978
Likes: 69
From: Hong Kong, Perth, Western Australia
Door panels installed now.
Centre console to do next.
Front dash is waiting to be covered.
Next is custom pipework for the SC chargecooler unit and installation of the new heat exchange.
Centre console to do next.
Front dash is waiting to be covered.
Next is custom pipework for the SC chargecooler unit and installation of the new heat exchange.
Intermediate
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
From: Oslo, Norway
Hi!
Great looking car. I was thinking about the TPC kit myself, and finally found one whos done it on a tip!
I wonder: can the tip take the extra heat and power?
Check out these guys http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co...d&productId=51
Did you do any reinforcement on the tip like the 22 -> 24 upgrade shown?
My thread:
Tor S.
Great looking car. I was thinking about the TPC kit myself, and finally found one whos done it on a tip!
I wonder: can the tip take the extra heat and power?
Check out these guys http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co...d&productId=51
Did you do any reinforcement on the tip like the 22 -> 24 upgrade shown?
My thread:
Tor S.
Last edited by torseilertsen; Apr 19, 2013 at 06:40 PM.
968, cylinder, fuel, head, injection, kit, lower, methanol, motronic, performance, porsche, protomotive, stage, supercharger, system, temperature, w
