haygeebaby

Thanks for the info mate.
2.6" measured from ridges.

haygeebaby

Sorry for the delay with the meth install gents.
I've been so busy and sort of dreading taking the car apart again to get the meth kit installed. But it was good to do it as it also gave me the chance to check up on the SC install after a few months use. Made sure everything was tight and checked all pipe work, etc.
Anyway, 99% done with the install now and tomorrow morning I'll do some final checks before starting the test with fluid injection into the engine.

So just a recap:

• Snow performance stage 2 boost cooling kit - getting signal from boost. Pump is 220psi and I've got a 100ml nozzle installed right now, and another 225ml nozzle to use - depending on how testing goes.
• Pump is sitting at the front on to of the ABS plastic cover, just like Axl's.
• Using the snow performance 3 quart reservoir - also mounted in the front.
• Pipe is running along the same path as the aircon pipe work - on the left side of the car.
• Controller is sitting in the rear - still need to think of how to secure it.
• Pump on light and low level fluid light mounted in center console.
• Injection point is just before the throttle body - nozzle mounted into the silicon pipe with plastic nozzle mount adapter.
• Initial settings are set to start pump at 2psi and max out at 4psi. This should change after some dyno testing and increasing boost with the smaller sc pulley.
• Will run 50/50 water/meth according to weight. Just found a place nearby that sells 20 litre containers of methanol for AU$55.

Some pics of the finished install:

haygeebaby

So with a test run for the install today - everything runs good. Red light pops on when tank is 1/4 empty and green light goes on the injection comes on. But I had to relocate the globes as they could not be seen with my initial placement. The globes now reside on the spare switch cover.

Got a question for the boys with meth kits installed. Are you seeing a little fluid around your pump after some use? I am seeing some with my install. I've made sure the piping is secure and pushed in as much as possible. But on occasion during inspection I see a little water around. I'm thinking of cutting a platic coke bottle and house that on the bottom of the pump to catch the fluid.

Going to fill the tank with some meth and water tonight and test direct injection into the engine. Would be interesting to see the cooling effect. Dyno next week - finallly !!!

haygeebaby

The SC unit is cool to the touch now. Even after a good hours drive. Usually it's the hottest part on the top of the engine. I've noticed more fluid coming out of the pump exit nozel area. Have send an email to tech support to see what might be the problem.

Juha G

Nice!!! Good work!!

How much did you spend on the meth kit total?

axl911

There should be no fluid. You're leaking bc the red hose is not cut correctly. Remove the red hose and recut it with an extremely sharp razor. Make sure the cut is vertical and the sharp knife doesnt bend the red hose into an oval shape. Then push the hose back into the pump.

haygeebaby

The stage 2 boost cooler kit from snowperformance cost me USD$433 and $66 for delivery to Aus - so all up around $500. The gang at snow have been pretty supportive and the customer service is pretty good. There meth injection forum is an interesting read as well.

Ok - I'll cut the pipe again and check a few things. Snow said that this doesnt usually happen and if the pipe re-cut doesnt fix it then they are thinking it must be a problem with the o-rings on the unit - and are happy to replace under warranty. But I will have to send back to USA.

haygeebaby

Latest update on the kit. Did the dyno this morning to get the delta after sc and new fpr installed. Some disappointing dyno results but the AFR is spot on. Need to send details back to Protomotive and see if we can tune things a little better. Not too sure how to interpret these figures as well. As each time I dynoed on the mainline dyno - the guys would eventually get ABS light and not be able to shift in tip mod. So I am thinking the numbers I am seeing is what the car is making in limp mode. We do two runs and inbetween we have to turn the car off and switch it back on to be able to shift again. I might dyno again but on the dynodynamics unit I used on the first run a while back.

Base line:
205 rwbhp 250 rw ft/lb (dynodynamics) a year ago with 911chip and decat
203 rwbhp 154 rw ft/lb (mainline dyno) pre sc install
257 rwbhp 216 rw ft/lb (mainline dyno) sc and 4.5 bar fpr

If we look at the results is percentages we can see that the 25% increase is bhp and a 40% increase in tq. The figures are way lower than the average of 310rwbhp and 290 rw ft/lb.

So do you think the result of the low figures is becuase of limp mode?
Or is it the tune?
I wonder if we can realize more power with improving the tune or will something like motec be our solution?
In the real world it drives great and we managed a 12.9 for the 1/4 mile.

Let me know your thoughts?

haygeebaby

On the 3rd and 4th run I also tested the meth kit turned on. Injection is set to start at about 3psi and max out at 4psi. I was running the 100ml nozzle, with 50/50 meth/water by weight. We can see on the dyno that the mixture gets too rich and the engine looses a little power.
During the first half of acceleration to the red line, the AFR drops into the low 11's with meth injection.
Need to think about this one and see if changing the start and max injection settings will help, or if a smaller nozzle is what we need. That would take us to a 60ml nozzle. Without meth the afr is spot on. Hmmm - what to do ???

MPB993

Hi Haygeebay,

205 rwhp seems low before install, could be dyno differences, tuning, exhaust, tip, etc, etc. My tip made 225 at the wheels as a base. When I ran 6lb max manifold pressure (3" pulley, no int) I made 270rwhp.

Suggestions-
Check boost pressure before / after chargecooler
Belt slip tends to be noticeable at high rpm and it doesnt look like you have pressure drop off there
I did at one point have a blocked cat but think you have changed that out for a more free flowing unit?
Pull fuel where you turn on meths at low rpm
Only other suggestions I have are ignition timing or the crank (5.5" on mine) to sc pulley (2.6" on mine) ratio is wrong or there are differences in our SCs. This as I am not really sure why you are seeing only this manifold pressure with the pulley you have apart from your system being more efficient than mine. As the chargecooler warms up do you see much of an increase in manifold pressure which would go someway to explain to me why your pressure is lower than mine? 1/4m 12.9s seems to fit with the rwhp you have.

Apart from environmental differences I cannot think of anything else without more info.

BR, Mark.

evoderby

Thanks for posting your results. These very closely match the power calculated a while ago based on your 12.9 ET:

"You're right, my mistake....the 13.8 is for a manual C2 as tested by Road&Track. Car&Driver have tested a Targa Tip @ 14.3 meaning a lower weight non Targa tip should be capable of something in the region of 14.15 .

A 12.9 ET means around 373HP in this case. 12.6 is around 398HP."

Now when comparing your mainline dyno numbers of 203 (chip&decat) vs 257 supercharged this translates into 290 flywheel HP vs. 367 HP with SC. If the original chip and decat gave 295HP we're exactly at 373...

This means acouple of things, first TPC tested their car on a different dyno and used a manual gearbox. The transmission loss on your Tip shows up as very high compared to a manual: 28% on your NA dyno sheets. Compare this to 15-17% normally seen on manuals.

This means 367 FWHP on a manual car gives (367 x 0.84 = 308) 308 WHP....again pretty close to what TPC claims possible.

Your fuel curve looks nice and safe thanks to the 4.5 FPR, there's no power left in there...at least not to be recommended leaning out for more power due to cooling effects when supercharging. There might be power left in the ignition map....this takes a very experienced dyno operator to access this without blowing holes in pistons.

I do find the difference in transmission loss between Tip and manual very significant indeed....maybe you could do some investigation in this area to win back wheel HP. Investigate clutch slip / burnt transmission oil, tire pressure etc.

Last but not least, don't forget to enjoy.....the numbers you're running would have cost massive money with conventional tuning :-)

haygeebaby

Cheers Mark
I am scratching my head as well - but the car still runs great and makes me smile.
I have read from a few people that they acheived a stock 200rwhp reading with our cars on dynos that give low readings. Even an article I have that reviews the red TPC car says that stock reading was 200. So I am assuming this is normal.

I also hear that with the chargecooler - between 6 and 4 psi is normal.
You are running no chargecooler right - therefore with less distance to the intake manifold you get higher psi?

My tq curve is also weird - it peaks at low revs and drops off quite a bit.

Yeah - I am running decat - so it flows a lot better.

Could it be the proto tune ?

haygeebaby

So you think the number are right Evoderby?

evoderby

Yes I do. Different dyno's give different readings, use different driveline correction etc. They are an excellent tool to compare before and after % gains however. Since you were so smart to run before and after numbers on the same dyno this allows some very valid comparisons to be made.

I think it is safe (?) to assume your car with chip and decat made somewhere between 290-295 FWHP....given the % gain measured on your dyno, your new power lies in the 367-373 range. Nothing but fail proof maths;-)

This also perfectly cross checks with 1/4 mile calculations....

I think you mentioned TPC claim 310 WHP, with 17% loss often seen on manual 993's this translates into....wait, 373 FWHP. Again the numbers add up.....

Your AFR's are running a tiny bit low after 5500rpm 12.5 vs. 12.0 might improve power with a few brake....whether you'd notice this driving I don't know.

evoderby

I have just taken a quick look at the dynojet curves on TPC's site.

First thing I notice is they measure 14% transmission loss to calculate FWHP. The average 310 WHP you mentioned translates into 360 TPC-FWHP.

They also state that their intercooler equipped kit allows 410FWHP or 11% more than you're now seeing. Question is what pulley/boost figures are used to achieve this? Assuming you now run about 6 psi boost, you'd need about 2.5 psi additional boost to get to this level of 410 HP.

367 x [(14.5 + 8.5) / (14.5 + 6)]= 411