PMO ITB's, DC 43 cam, JIC, Electromotive TEC3R, etc
07-13-2011, 11:45 PM
#61
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Camlob, some good advice here. get the data, then make the decision. We all at some stage get the 'while we are in there bug" but sometimes stepping back and looking at the whole picture will save money and heart ache in the long run.... Keep us informed, as always you have many people interested 
07-14-2011, 12:23 AM
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Jae Lee at Mirage International is help building the Singer 993 motors for Cosworth. They are punching out the block and using Carillo's for rods and their own ecu for tuning. You should give him a call to see what works. He is here in San Diego and a really helpful guy. He built two of my motors and I'm a satisfied customer.
I'm just waiting for an invite to take a tour of the Cosworth facility. He says its unbelievable.
Very interesting project you have going there. Look forward to the results. Good luck.
I'm just waiting for an invite to take a tour of the Cosworth facility. He says its unbelievable.
Very interesting project you have going there. Look forward to the results. Good luck.
07-14-2011, 01:22 AM
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Jae Lee at Mirage International is help building the Singer 993 motors for Cosworth. They are punching out the block and using Carillo's for rods and their own ecu for tuning. You should give him a call to see what works. He is here in San Diego and a really helpful guy. He built two of my motors and I'm a satisfied customer.
I'm just waiting for an invite to take a tour of the Cosworth facility. He says its unbelievable.
Very interesting project you have going there. Look forward to the results. Good luck.
I'm just waiting for an invite to take a tour of the Cosworth facility. He says its unbelievable.
Very interesting project you have going there. Look forward to the results. Good luck.
I am just wondering the changes that they will do vs. the ninemeister engine. Will they have ITB's? Will it be a 4l instead of a 3.8l?
I am still waiting for more replies to my rod poll. Tks.
07-14-2011, 01:23 AM
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Camlob, some good advice here. get the data, then make the decision. We all at some stage get the 'while we are in there bug" but sometimes stepping back and looking at the whole picture will save money and heart ache in the long run.... Keep us informed, as always you have many people interested
07-14-2011, 08:03 AM
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So we did the leakdown and its coming from the cylinders! Wow, I thought that Porsche Pistons and rings lasted for 150k kms? Mine was only 65k kms. Ha.ha...overstatements are learned the hard way.
I am ordering the 4l kit, and the aftermarket rods. My poll so far, gives that its the best for the 4l kit. As trophy put it, treat it like insurance!
I just put my Rolex GMT II ceramic 2011 model for sale! LOL....yes I am unloading that for a better satisfaction with the upgrade. Boy, I have to see a psychiatrist soon!
BTW, my wife doesnt know anything of whats happening....
I am ordering the 4l kit, and the aftermarket rods. My poll so far, gives that its the best for the 4l kit. As trophy put it, treat it like insurance!
I just put my Rolex GMT II ceramic 2011 model for sale! LOL....yes I am unloading that for a better satisfaction with the upgrade. Boy, I have to see a psychiatrist soon!
BTW, my wife doesnt know anything of whats happening....
07-14-2011, 09:39 AM
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Camlob, I feel your pain. Your car looks great, so hopefully with a bit of help we will get your engine to a happy place as well.
Achieving improved performance from an engine is all about the synergy of the collection of parts within & on the engine and the quality with which you put it together. Putting it simply, you will never achieve your goals from buying random collections of parts, bolting them together then assuming you have a divine right to 50hp increase just because your supplier believes that "the cams add 10, the ITB's 12, the pistons 17 & the management 10". Sorry to shatter an illusion but there is honestly no other way to explain it. Please don't take this badly, but you don't appear to have analysed what you want to achieve from the engine build process. Reading the posts, I think your most insightful comment came on your second reply: "I didnt want too an aggressive cam. Weekend fun runs with friends and the occassional trackday. I intend to increase my rev limit to 7k. I usually shift at 6.5k so the engine will not be too abused". Hmmmm. OK, so here's my take for what it's worth.
For up to a stock 6800/7000rpm limit the stock bottom end is safe and with the right cam the best area under the power graph (read fastest engine) will be achieved with a stock intake manifold (Varioram or Non-V). Engine management & injectors are a good choice, so I would add mild cams that peak power at no more than 6500 to match the manifold. Headers need to be small diameter & long to work within this range.
Over 7000rpm the stock manifold restricts power so ITB's are the order of the day. You will also need to replace rods & pistons, which then means that you can use a wilder cam with more overlap & lift at TDC to peak power in the 7300-7500 range (Note that RPM is important with respect to power, if two engines make the same peak hp torque, if the 6500rpm engine makes 350hp it's 7500rpm cousin will make 400hp). Hence on the grounds that you have the ITB's, ECU & cams it is obvious from your previous power graph that your current engine wants to make power well beyond 7000rpm, therefore you need to build the engine to make the most of what you have.
My recommendation is to play safe and just buy yourself a set of Mahle 102mm race pistons & cylinders at ~11.5:1. Link them to the crank with a set of Carrillos, notch the oil pump for clearance, balance the crank/flywheel (lightweight I hope?)/pulley set & build yourself a 100 hour race engine. ARP head studs would be nice but not mandatory. So why recommend Mahle? Because as you have already found, cylinder/ring seal is critical and the worst enemy to maintaining cylinder pressure is bore distortion, so go with the most reliable option of a 102mm bore because it has a reasonable wall section for maximum strength. The maximum I will run is 103mm, an engineering choice backed up by Porsche's maximum bore of 102.7mm for the GT3. If funds allow choose the RS 109mm spigots and have the crankcases machined out and o-ringed to suit. I would probably windage cut my own engine whilst it was apart but this is not essential.
With this lot installed I would expect the engine to make around 400hp. The dyno graph below shows a stock 964RS on Motec, a 3.75 litre 964RS on Motec (both with stock manifolds) and a 3.75 litre race engine on ITB's to a similar spec as recommended. You can now clearly see why I recommend stock manifolds for sub-7000rpm and how ITBs/cams only work above 6500rpm.
Hope this helps?
Achieving improved performance from an engine is all about the synergy of the collection of parts within & on the engine and the quality with which you put it together. Putting it simply, you will never achieve your goals from buying random collections of parts, bolting them together then assuming you have a divine right to 50hp increase just because your supplier believes that "the cams add 10, the ITB's 12, the pistons 17 & the management 10". Sorry to shatter an illusion but there is honestly no other way to explain it. Please don't take this badly, but you don't appear to have analysed what you want to achieve from the engine build process. Reading the posts, I think your most insightful comment came on your second reply: "I didnt want too an aggressive cam. Weekend fun runs with friends and the occassional trackday. I intend to increase my rev limit to 7k. I usually shift at 6.5k so the engine will not be too abused". Hmmmm. OK, so here's my take for what it's worth.
For up to a stock 6800/7000rpm limit the stock bottom end is safe and with the right cam the best area under the power graph (read fastest engine) will be achieved with a stock intake manifold (Varioram or Non-V). Engine management & injectors are a good choice, so I would add mild cams that peak power at no more than 6500 to match the manifold. Headers need to be small diameter & long to work within this range.
Over 7000rpm the stock manifold restricts power so ITB's are the order of the day. You will also need to replace rods & pistons, which then means that you can use a wilder cam with more overlap & lift at TDC to peak power in the 7300-7500 range (Note that RPM is important with respect to power, if two engines make the same peak hp torque, if the 6500rpm engine makes 350hp it's 7500rpm cousin will make 400hp). Hence on the grounds that you have the ITB's, ECU & cams it is obvious from your previous power graph that your current engine wants to make power well beyond 7000rpm, therefore you need to build the engine to make the most of what you have.
My recommendation is to play safe and just buy yourself a set of Mahle 102mm race pistons & cylinders at ~11.5:1. Link them to the crank with a set of Carrillos, notch the oil pump for clearance, balance the crank/flywheel (lightweight I hope?)/pulley set & build yourself a 100 hour race engine. ARP head studs would be nice but not mandatory. So why recommend Mahle? Because as you have already found, cylinder/ring seal is critical and the worst enemy to maintaining cylinder pressure is bore distortion, so go with the most reliable option of a 102mm bore because it has a reasonable wall section for maximum strength. The maximum I will run is 103mm, an engineering choice backed up by Porsche's maximum bore of 102.7mm for the GT3. If funds allow choose the RS 109mm spigots and have the crankcases machined out and o-ringed to suit. I would probably windage cut my own engine whilst it was apart but this is not essential.
With this lot installed I would expect the engine to make around 400hp. The dyno graph below shows a stock 964RS on Motec, a 3.75 litre 964RS on Motec (both with stock manifolds) and a 3.75 litre race engine on ITB's to a similar spec as recommended. You can now clearly see why I recommend stock manifolds for sub-7000rpm and how ITBs/cams only work above 6500rpm.
Hope this helps?
07-14-2011, 10:11 AM
#67
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Colin. Brilliant biopse of the situation. Lovely work in condensing as huge subject as this into a mini mars bar. Im understanding everything which shows me Im learning.....love your work.
Only question I had (which Im actually feelling preety good about right now) was "what the heck does I would probably windage cut my own engine" mean? It better be as interesting as it sounds because thats gonna be my next most used paragraph for the next week! :-)
M
Only question I had (which Im actually feelling preety good about right now) was "what the heck does I would probably windage cut my own engine" mean? It better be as interesting as it sounds because thats gonna be my next most used paragraph for the next week! :-)
M
07-14-2011, 11:31 AM
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Motor
What I was told that Cosworth is building a 3.9L motor with 964 heads ported and polished, JE pistons and using a GT3 plenum.
No idea on the hp yet, but the shop has three climate controlled dynos that can simulate altitude or any specific location you want.
No idea on the hp yet, but the shop has three climate controlled dynos that can simulate altitude or any specific location you want.
07-14-2011, 11:46 AM
#69
That's great info Colin!
For a street car on ITBs (with occasional track use), would you use something different than what's on the race 964 discussed above? Does the little dip in torque make it painful to drive slowly between traffic lights? Is there a way to reduce noise levels?
Thanks in advance.
For a street car on ITBs (with occasional track use), would you use something different than what's on the race 964 discussed above? Does the little dip in torque make it painful to drive slowly between traffic lights? Is there a way to reduce noise levels?
Thanks in advance.
07-14-2011, 02:11 PM
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Colin. Brilliant biopse of the situation. Lovely work in condensing as huge subject as this into a mini mars bar. Im understanding everything which shows me Im learning.....love your work.
Only question I had (which Im actually feelling preety good about right now) was "what the heck does I would probably windage cut my own engine" mean? It better be as interesting as it sounds because thats gonna be my next most used paragraph for the next week! :-)
M
Only question I had (which Im actually feelling preety good about right now) was "what the heck does I would probably windage cut my own engine" mean? It better be as interesting as it sounds because thats gonna be my next most used paragraph for the next week! :-)
M
07-14-2011, 02:24 PM
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That's great info Colin!
For a street car on ITBs (with occasional track use), would you use something different than what's on the race 964 discussed above? Does the little dip in torque make it painful to drive slowly between traffic lights? Is there a way to reduce noise levels?
Thanks in advance.
For a street car on ITBs (with occasional track use), would you use something different than what's on the race 964 discussed above? Does the little dip in torque make it painful to drive slowly between traffic lights? Is there a way to reduce noise levels?
Thanks in advance.
That said, should you go the whole 9 yards & build a race engine that needs ITB's you can always build plenums on the top, like this set up that my customer built for his 3.75 litre 400hp engine:
07-14-2011, 07:13 PM
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Camlob, I feel your pain. Your car looks great, so hopefully with a bit of help we will get your engine to a happy place as well.
Achieving improved performance from an engine is all about the synergy of the collection of parts within & on the engine and the quality with which you put it together. Putting it simply, you will never achieve your goals from buying random collections of parts, bolting them together then assuming you have a divine right to 50hp increase just because your supplier believes that "the cams add 10, the ITB's 12, the pistons 17 & the management 10". Sorry to shatter an illusion but there is honestly no other way to explain it. Please don't take this badly, but you don't appear to have analysed what you want to achieve from the engine build process. Reading the posts, I think your most insightful comment came on your second reply: "I didnt want too an aggressive cam. Weekend fun runs with friends and the occassional trackday. I intend to increase my rev limit to 7k. I usually shift at 6.5k so the engine will not be too abused". Hmmmm. OK, so here's my take for what it's worth.
For up to a stock 6800/7000rpm limit the stock bottom end is safe and with the right cam the best area under the power graph (read fastest engine) will be achieved with a stock intake manifold (Varioram or Non-V). Engine management & injectors are a good choice, so I would add mild cams that peak power at no more than 6500 to match the manifold. Headers need to be small diameter & long to work within this range.
Over 7000rpm the stock manifold restricts power so ITB's are the order of the day. You will also need to replace rods & pistons, which then means that you can use a wilder cam with more overlap & lift at TDC to peak power in the 7300-7500 range (Note that RPM is important with respect to power, if two engines make the same peak hp torque, if the 6500rpm engine makes 350hp it's 7500rpm cousin will make 400hp). Hence on the grounds that you have the ITB's, ECU & cams it is obvious from your previous power graph that your current engine wants to make power well beyond 7000rpm, therefore you need to build the engine to make the most of what you have.
My recommendation is to play safe and just buy yourself a set of Mahle 102mm race pistons & cylinders at ~11.5:1. Link them to the crank with a set of Carrillos, notch the oil pump for clearance, balance the crank/flywheel (lightweight I hope?)/pulley set & build yourself a 100 hour race engine. ARP head studs would be nice but not mandatory. So why recommend Mahle? Because as you have already found, cylinder/ring seal is critical and the worst enemy to maintaining cylinder pressure is bore distortion, so go with the most reliable option of a 102mm bore because it has a reasonable wall section for maximum strength. The maximum I will run is 103mm, an engineering choice backed up by Porsche's maximum bore of 102.7mm for the GT3. If funds allow choose the RS 109mm spigots and have the crankcases machined out and o-ringed to suit. I would probably windage cut my own engine whilst it was apart but this is not essential.
With this lot installed I would expect the engine to make around 400hp. The dyno graph below shows a stock 964RS on Motec, a 3.75 litre 964RS on Motec (both with stock manifolds) and a 3.75 litre race engine on ITB's to a similar spec as recommended. You can now clearly see why I recommend stock manifolds for sub-7000rpm and how ITBs/cams only work above 6500rpm.
Hope this helps?
Achieving improved performance from an engine is all about the synergy of the collection of parts within & on the engine and the quality with which you put it together. Putting it simply, you will never achieve your goals from buying random collections of parts, bolting them together then assuming you have a divine right to 50hp increase just because your supplier believes that "the cams add 10, the ITB's 12, the pistons 17 & the management 10". Sorry to shatter an illusion but there is honestly no other way to explain it. Please don't take this badly, but you don't appear to have analysed what you want to achieve from the engine build process. Reading the posts, I think your most insightful comment came on your second reply: "I didnt want too an aggressive cam. Weekend fun runs with friends and the occassional trackday. I intend to increase my rev limit to 7k. I usually shift at 6.5k so the engine will not be too abused". Hmmmm. OK, so here's my take for what it's worth.
For up to a stock 6800/7000rpm limit the stock bottom end is safe and with the right cam the best area under the power graph (read fastest engine) will be achieved with a stock intake manifold (Varioram or Non-V). Engine management & injectors are a good choice, so I would add mild cams that peak power at no more than 6500 to match the manifold. Headers need to be small diameter & long to work within this range.
Over 7000rpm the stock manifold restricts power so ITB's are the order of the day. You will also need to replace rods & pistons, which then means that you can use a wilder cam with more overlap & lift at TDC to peak power in the 7300-7500 range (Note that RPM is important with respect to power, if two engines make the same peak hp torque, if the 6500rpm engine makes 350hp it's 7500rpm cousin will make 400hp). Hence on the grounds that you have the ITB's, ECU & cams it is obvious from your previous power graph that your current engine wants to make power well beyond 7000rpm, therefore you need to build the engine to make the most of what you have.
My recommendation is to play safe and just buy yourself a set of Mahle 102mm race pistons & cylinders at ~11.5:1. Link them to the crank with a set of Carrillos, notch the oil pump for clearance, balance the crank/flywheel (lightweight I hope?)/pulley set & build yourself a 100 hour race engine. ARP head studs would be nice but not mandatory. So why recommend Mahle? Because as you have already found, cylinder/ring seal is critical and the worst enemy to maintaining cylinder pressure is bore distortion, so go with the most reliable option of a 102mm bore because it has a reasonable wall section for maximum strength. The maximum I will run is 103mm, an engineering choice backed up by Porsche's maximum bore of 102.7mm for the GT3. If funds allow choose the RS 109mm spigots and have the crankcases machined out and o-ringed to suit. I would probably windage cut my own engine whilst it was apart but this is not essential.
With this lot installed I would expect the engine to make around 400hp. The dyno graph below shows a stock 964RS on Motec, a 3.75 litre 964RS on Motec (both with stock manifolds) and a 3.75 litre race engine on ITB's to a similar spec as recommended. You can now clearly see why I recommend stock manifolds for sub-7000rpm and how ITBs/cams only work above 6500rpm.
Hope this helps?
The 4l kit was an option that I was considering for about a year. I was thinking of putting that a year from now. I already anticipated that the ITB build was just a piece meal approach. It was just the first step to the eventual 4l build. When I spoke to John D., I asked him for a cam for that situation, for an eventual 4l kit. He recommended the DC 43 112.
But after visitng flatsixengineering in Singapore recently, I just realized that a DC 60(RSR spec) would have suited me! But the 993 there had new 3.8 cylinders and a CMW head.
If you recall, I inquired months ago on the purchase of your engine. Unfortunately, the investments that I was expecting did bear fruit yet. That was my target.
My mechanic is not a specific porsche mechanic but he is the best we have here. No one wanted to do wiring loom for the ITB except for him. So, how do I tell him how to notch the oil pump? I will inquire on where to get the o-rings for the cases.
I have ordered the 4l kit already so I cant back out. I understand that the liners are quite thick since it has 109mm spigots. Charles N. at LN said he has seen a set 4l pistons and cylinders that have done over 200hrs!
Yes you are correct that the ITB system likes a 7k rpm rev range. On my vid with the 4th gear pulls, I thought he was cutting out at 5k rpm! But he was cutting it at 6.7k rpm. So I ordered Pauter rods. According to Troy of EBS, my valvetrain can take 8.5k rpm. I was thinking of just setting it there but on actual use, shift at 7.5k. What do you think? Should I just limit it at 7.5k or 8k?
As I mentioned that I am going by stages, my next step in the future are your billet heads.
07-14-2011, 07:52 PM
#73
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A safe rpm limit depends on the weight of the pistons, but I would be pretty confident guess that they would be safe up to 7800 with the Pauter rods so initially I suggest you set the soft rpm limit to 7500 and the hard cut at 7800. Then build the engine and see where the peak power ends up, if it is in the 7000-7250 region leave the softcut at 7500, if it is still going up at 7500 I would raise the limit to 7800 soft & 8000rpm hard. With a stock crank I would not go 1 rpm above 8000.
The oil pump cutouts are for Carrillo rods, if the Pauters need something similar the instructions will tell you when you get them.
109mm spigot cylinders are the RS specification, stock is 107mm. You will have to remove all the head studs from the case, machine out the cylinder holes to 109mm and then under cut a rebate in the bores to accept the RS black o-ring. If you need dimensions for the machine shop let me know, but don't worry about the o-rings as they are supplied in all aftermarket gasket sets.
The oil pump cutouts are for Carrillo rods, if the Pauters need something similar the instructions will tell you when you get them.
109mm spigot cylinders are the RS specification, stock is 107mm. You will have to remove all the head studs from the case, machine out the cylinder holes to 109mm and then under cut a rebate in the bores to accept the RS black o-ring. If you need dimensions for the machine shop let me know, but don't worry about the o-rings as they are supplied in all aftermarket gasket sets.
07-14-2011, 08:45 PM
#74
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Thanks Colin. Windage cutting sounds so much more technical than Porting!
Wow Camlob. You dont waste time! And you have really big *****!! Best of luck with the 4.0l build. I look forward to the updates....from Steve Wong chip to a $30k race engine. Thats unreal. Just a question. Why wouldnt you crate the engine and send to Jeffrey/Colin or Steve W to have it built crank up and done just right? Might be cheaper in the long run as those guys can identify exactly what is needed and see things that may be show stoppers that a non 911 engine builder just wont be looking for.....if I had your budget that would be my choice IMHO.
Cheers
M
Wow Camlob. You dont waste time! And you have really big *****!! Best of luck with the 4.0l build. I look forward to the updates....from Steve Wong chip to a $30k race engine. Thats unreal. Just a question. Why wouldnt you crate the engine and send to Jeffrey/Colin or Steve W to have it built crank up and done just right? Might be cheaper in the long run as those guys can identify exactly what is needed and see things that may be show stoppers that a non 911 engine builder just wont be looking for.....if I had your budget that would be my choice IMHO.
Cheers
M
07-14-2011, 10:13 PM
#75
Burning Brakes
Jeez Cam - I hope you get this project sorted sooner than latter and with less $$$ rather than more $$$.
The only problem I've run into so far with my project was getting the crank pulley off. That set me back a couple of days. But I can understand how you might feel with such a set back on your project.
Hope you get it sorted soon mate.
Regards
Ken
The only problem I've run into so far with my project was getting the crank pulley off. That set me back a couple of days. But I can understand how you might feel with such a set back on your project.
Hope you get it sorted soon mate.
Regards
Ken