Dropping in a set of RS or DC21/22 cams - info and cams needed?
02-17-2011 | 10:37 PM
#31
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From: Calgary...Under my car... :)
Macca, I am riding on your coat tails here, keep blazing the way.
I have headers and an aftermarket ECU so Cams have been on my list for quite a while. Can you PM the prices that John quoted, i am interested in seeing what this may cost me...
I have headers and an aftermarket ECU so Cams have been on my list for quite a while. Can you PM the prices that John quoted, i am interested in seeing what this may cost me...
02-17-2011 | 11:03 PM
#32
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From: Earth
Thanks Camlob. I will look into that. Like yourself wasnt keen on paying $450 usd on a full set when I only need the smaller ones but looks like it may be the only way. Im quite suprised someone hasnt listed the specific gaskets and they dont have a part number form the OEM supplier to Porsche that they could be acquired using. I have not found such a list yet on searching Rennlist but your Pelican links are as close as I have seen....
John D has come back to me and to use DC21 which he recommends for my application it looks like indeed I need to go for solid rockers. Looks like I cant use hydraullic. However his pricng on teh solid lifters seems resonable. Mmmm. It started out looking lik a good bang for buck mod at this level now the slow is slippeery again LOL!
M
John D has come back to me and to use DC21 which he recommends for my application it looks like indeed I need to go for solid rockers. Looks like I cant use hydraullic. However his pricng on teh solid lifters seems resonable. Mmmm. It started out looking lik a good bang for buck mod at this level now the slow is slippeery again LOL!
M
Sorry to help push you down the slope.
02-17-2011 | 11:39 PM
#33
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From: New Zealand
Steven
No worries. Have PMed you. Lets compare notes as we work through this....
MarinS4. You arent wrong mate. DC21 do indeed soundd the perfect ticket from my cnveersations with John. "Im free, free fallin"!
Cheers
M
No worries. Have PMed you. Lets compare notes as we work through this....
MarinS4. You arent wrong mate. DC21 do indeed soundd the perfect ticket from my cnveersations with John. "Im free, free fallin"!
Cheers
M
02-18-2011 | 12:15 AM
#35
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From: Calgary...Under my car... :)
Macca, check out this thread, they are talking about engine gasket kits, the guy in post 10 believes wrightwood racing make custom gasket kits. Maybe if we got a few guys together they may put a set together and save a few bucks.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-e...k-gaskets.html
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-e...k-gaskets.html
02-18-2011 | 01:33 AM
#36
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From: New Zealand
Hi Steve. I have emailed poster #10 for a quote on a viton kit to cover precisely the job of Camshaft replacement and going to solid lifters...
It seems no one has a precise list of the gaskets required so we will see if we can come up with a definaite list to post here fr anyone attempting this job in the future....
OK. So so far we have accumulated the following data:
If you use your existing stock cams you can have these reground to DC21 with 114 seperation for $345 usd. Great value. DC suggests this is a perfect blend for a street 993. More agressive than RS cam profile but suitable for a street 993 with LWFC without casuing missfire or stalling. Also with a flat torque curve making peak power in similar ranges than stock cam (obviously a tad higher). Cam builders estimates of 18-20bhp (similar lbft torque?) improvements sound a little high with stock NVR inlet valves but possible wth upgraded RS inlet valves I guess. Time to make = 5 working days after core recieved. Core needs 993 keyways. $345 usd
Rockers refurbished x 12 = $360 with cores. But DC says the factory Hydraulic typ wont work so extra $120usd for a set from scratch = $480usd....(2 weeks manufacture time!)
Solid lifters needed for this conversion. Does anyone have a solid lifter kit (including and excluding backdated 964 cam sprocket for thosse of us with early engines that dont need the sprocket)? Im getting conflicting data here. Need some examples, prices and suppliers from Porsche 964 parts to afteermarket????
Labour - most estimates are talking 16-20hrs (max). Depending on shop rate around $1800 for this job.
Gasket kits - as said before conflicting data. Pelican site via Camlob links suggest $105 usd for OEM supplier kit and associated gaskets/rings. Possible another $100 usd for rocker arm shaft inner seals x 2 4 (OEM) if needed. These are the paper based gaskets. Although people say they arent as good as they can be they actually seem to be pretty good going on feedbacl but not ideal if using unleaded race gas or high compression...Alternatives include Wrightwood Viton gaskets and seals in but mor expensive ($500+) but Im still trying to find out what these are and what is required...hel needed if anyone knows...
Lastly springs & adjusters. This isnt mandatory but for the price worth considering "while you are in there"! Aasco racing springs seem popular but at $425 we are talking a fair investment I guess...
Ok folks - thats were we are but need any data points that can be found to make this a good future reference thread. Looking at above it would appear if you take your time you could have this job completed for around $3.5k usd including shop labour depending on what the solid liftr back date kit costs? If it gives 20 bhp we are talking $175usd per hp. Sounds alot but after youve done all the obvious stuff it actually isnt bad for the money and I believe the actual performance aspect, sound and feel is also a great lot of fun...
Cheers
M
It seems no one has a precise list of the gaskets required so we will see if we can come up with a definaite list to post here fr anyone attempting this job in the future....
OK. So so far we have accumulated the following data:
If you use your existing stock cams you can have these reground to DC21 with 114 seperation for $345 usd. Great value. DC suggests this is a perfect blend for a street 993. More agressive than RS cam profile but suitable for a street 993 with LWFC without casuing missfire or stalling. Also with a flat torque curve making peak power in similar ranges than stock cam (obviously a tad higher). Cam builders estimates of 18-20bhp (similar lbft torque?) improvements sound a little high with stock NVR inlet valves but possible wth upgraded RS inlet valves I guess. Time to make = 5 working days after core recieved. Core needs 993 keyways. $345 usd
Rockers refurbished x 12 = $360 with cores. But DC says the factory Hydraulic typ wont work so extra $120usd for a set from scratch = $480usd....(2 weeks manufacture time!)
Solid lifters needed for this conversion. Does anyone have a solid lifter kit (including and excluding backdated 964 cam sprocket for thosse of us with early engines that dont need the sprocket)? Im getting conflicting data here. Need some examples, prices and suppliers from Porsche 964 parts to afteermarket????
Labour - most estimates are talking 16-20hrs (max). Depending on shop rate around $1800 for this job.
Gasket kits - as said before conflicting data. Pelican site via Camlob links suggest $105 usd for OEM supplier kit and associated gaskets/rings. Possible another $100 usd for rocker arm shaft inner seals x 2 4 (OEM) if needed. These are the paper based gaskets. Although people say they arent as good as they can be they actually seem to be pretty good going on feedbacl but not ideal if using unleaded race gas or high compression...Alternatives include Wrightwood Viton gaskets and seals in but mor expensive ($500+) but Im still trying to find out what these are and what is required...hel needed if anyone knows...
Lastly springs & adjusters. This isnt mandatory but for the price worth considering "while you are in there"! Aasco racing springs seem popular but at $425 we are talking a fair investment I guess...
Ok folks - thats were we are but need any data points that can be found to make this a good future reference thread. Looking at above it would appear if you take your time you could have this job completed for around $3.5k usd including shop labour depending on what the solid liftr back date kit costs? If it gives 20 bhp we are talking $175usd per hp. Sounds alot but after youve done all the obvious stuff it actually isnt bad for the money and I believe the actual performance aspect, sound and feel is also a great lot of fun...
Cheers
M
02-18-2011 | 01:43 AM
#37
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From: Earth
I look forward to hearing your feedback from the DC21's. I am quite pleased myself! Valve springs are cheap insurance against valve float. They are quite old at this point and they have to be getting tired.
02-18-2011 | 01:47 AM
#38
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From: USA
02-18-2011 | 02:01 AM
#39
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From: New Zealand
MarinS4....added to the list! Can you recommed springs or supplier? Only choice so far is Aasco racing at $425usd a set was wondering if there were alternatives?
Ive done search and there seems little good data n this mod route on Rennlist although Pelican has some good threads under their 911 "engine building" section....
Cheers
M
Ive done search and there seems little good data n this mod route on Rennlist although Pelican has some good threads under their 911 "engine building" section....
Cheers
M
02-18-2011 | 03:39 AM
#40
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Contact EBS to ask about the Wrightwood racing gaskets...that is where I sourced mine. Great products (I was poster #7 on your referenced thread), I have not had a leak in the last five years (knock on wood).!
Surely there are tuners in NZ where you can get your heads done correctly instead of shipping them all to the US? (or is the market too small?).
At a minimum, I am sure when the valves are done the springs should be checked, even if you replace them to make sure the ones going can generate the seat pressure you want for your RPM and cam targets.
The other weak spot on 993 engines are the rod bolts, but that is getting quite a bit deeper. Those are the bolts that can take a beating (i.e. over stretch on a missed shift and over-rev, and then over a bit of time fail. This is not an issue on a normal engine, but if you are raising your RPM limit then it can be an issue. I used ARP bolts on my car, but of course I split the case of it was easier. You can take the rods out without splitting the case, but its going to add labor to the job. (woops, did not read the thread, saw that mentioned already).
For street and some track, I am not sure I would go for solid lifters. I also had the option of going to another set of cams and RS valves when I did my car, but I just could not justify the expense given its primarily a street car. At the time, I did the engine rebuild and RS clutch, and the costs were adding up (I am cheap). It will be interesting to see how your car comes out.
Cheers,
MIke
Surely there are tuners in NZ where you can get your heads done correctly instead of shipping them all to the US? (or is the market too small?).
At a minimum, I am sure when the valves are done the springs should be checked, even if you replace them to make sure the ones going can generate the seat pressure you want for your RPM and cam targets.
The other weak spot on 993 engines are the rod bolts, but that is getting quite a bit deeper. Those are the bolts that can take a beating (i.e. over stretch on a missed shift and over-rev, and then over a bit of time fail. This is not an issue on a normal engine, but if you are raising your RPM limit then it can be an issue. I used ARP bolts on my car, but of course I split the case of it was easier. You can take the rods out without splitting the case, but its going to add labor to the job. (woops, did not read the thread, saw that mentioned already).
For street and some track, I am not sure I would go for solid lifters. I also had the option of going to another set of cams and RS valves when I did my car, but I just could not justify the expense given its primarily a street car. At the time, I did the engine rebuild and RS clutch, and the costs were adding up (I am cheap). It will be interesting to see how your car comes out.
Cheers,
MIke
02-18-2011 | 04:19 AM
#41
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From: Earth
MarinS4....added to the list! Can you recommed springs or supplier? Only choice so far is Aasco racing at $425usd a set was wondering if there were alternatives?
Ive done search and there seems little good data n this mod route on Rennlist although Pelican has some good threads under their 911 "engine building" section....
Cheers
M
Ive done search and there seems little good data n this mod route on Rennlist although Pelican has some good threads under their 911 "engine building" section....
Cheers
M
http://www.ebsracing.com/
I used the titanium retainers for better valve control at high RPM's.
02-18-2011 | 04:26 AM
#42
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As I said, EBS... LOL!
Talk to those guys, they also have an in-house machine shop in case you want a second opinion.
Gerry Woods also has a good set of spring available *(and lots of other goodies!!!!) :
http://www.smartracingproducts.com/catalog/engine.htm
Another good source of info? Go to the engine rebuilding forum on Pelican Parts...get source of info. WHen I did my rebuild, not much on 993 engines, but that is changing rapidly.
Cheers,
Mike
Talk to those guys, they also have an in-house machine shop in case you want a second opinion.
Gerry Woods also has a good set of spring available *(and lots of other goodies!!!!) :
http://www.smartracingproducts.com/catalog/engine.htm
Another good source of info? Go to the engine rebuilding forum on Pelican Parts...get source of info. WHen I did my rebuild, not much on 993 engines, but that is changing rapidly.
Cheers,
Mike
02-18-2011 | 04:53 AM
#43
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From: New Zealand
Hi MikeJ and MarinS4. Great references. Thanks - I will look those up now....
Still trying to determine the parts requirements for solid lifters. I think I my be lucky in having the older style 964 cam sprockets in the first instance so this may save some cost. I agree solid manually adjusted lifters isnt as desirable on a street machine as the fairly reliable Hydraullic ones but the DC21 gives me no choice. Ive spoke briefly with my mechanic on this and he said given I drive no more than 2-3000 miles a year (mostly open road spirited driving and touring long distance) that he thought i should be good for a fair while (4+ years) between needing them adjusted - in part due to probably only going on teh track for 2-3 days over that same period.
Unfortunately only 150 x 993 were sold new in my country of all variants so finding ANYONE experienced in the mods Ive been doing to the car is impossible. I have imported almost every item from the US or Germany and had to teach my mechanic via Rennlist how to install and use these pieces! Everytime he does these list of jobs I print off pages of threads. Hes using it as a reference himself these days and my mechanic is the largest official Porsche workshop in NZ!!! Unfortunatey the main Porsche dealer workshops have very few techies left that did training on 964 and 993 at factory. They are all young fellas now that walk around with a large tester panel and rip out Cayenne ECUs under warranty and replace wiring looms and ABS sensors on Panameras LOL!
Cheers
M
Still trying to determine the parts requirements for solid lifters. I think I my be lucky in having the older style 964 cam sprockets in the first instance so this may save some cost. I agree solid manually adjusted lifters isnt as desirable on a street machine as the fairly reliable Hydraullic ones but the DC21 gives me no choice. Ive spoke briefly with my mechanic on this and he said given I drive no more than 2-3000 miles a year (mostly open road spirited driving and touring long distance) that he thought i should be good for a fair while (4+ years) between needing them adjusted - in part due to probably only going on teh track for 2-3 days over that same period.
Unfortunately only 150 x 993 were sold new in my country of all variants so finding ANYONE experienced in the mods Ive been doing to the car is impossible. I have imported almost every item from the US or Germany and had to teach my mechanic via Rennlist how to install and use these pieces! Everytime he does these list of jobs I print off pages of threads. Hes using it as a reference himself these days and my mechanic is the largest official Porsche workshop in NZ!!! Unfortunatey the main Porsche dealer workshops have very few techies left that did training on 964 and 993 at factory. They are all young fellas now that walk around with a large tester panel and rip out Cayenne ECUs under warranty and replace wiring looms and ABS sensors on Panameras LOL!
Cheers
M
10-21-2011 | 07:34 PM
#44
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Joined: Aug 2011
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Hi Macca,
Sorry to Hijack your thread here but Im in the process of rebuilding my 964 engine at the min which includes an upgrade to 3.8 PC(the Machine in ones) and ebs racing has suggested a dc21 cam grind or a 964 sport cam for my setup.Car will haev RS clutch and flywheel single pulley conversion , no power steering parasite on the engine and a remap. Just wondering if anybody could suggest one which would be best if indeed any change. The cars for street use and the occasional track day.
Cheers,
Dave
Ch
Sorry to Hijack your thread here but Im in the process of rebuilding my 964 engine at the min which includes an upgrade to 3.8 PC(the Machine in ones) and ebs racing has suggested a dc21 cam grind or a 964 sport cam for my setup.Car will haev RS clutch and flywheel single pulley conversion , no power steering parasite on the engine and a remap. Just wondering if anybody could suggest one which would be best if indeed any change. The cars for street use and the occasional track day.
Cheers,
Dave
Ch