boulderbobo

In the lasest issue of Excellence (Issue 189) there is a short commentary upfront in the mag about the new 9-1-1. My take on the commentary is that the author thinks Porsche has lost their mojo with the new 911s. The author makes a couple of references to our vintage cars, and implies that Porsche got it right with the 993.

After driving a few of the newer cars (997.1 and 997.2) both "S" and non "S" cars I would have to agree with the author. They are so refined I don't get that raw sports car experience. My car is pretty modded out and provides a very RAW experience, so it really not fair to compare...Please don't take this as a slam on the newer cars. They are awesome, just not all that special imho.

The words made me feel good about my car. The 993 is a very special car.

Then I go the the vaulation section of the magazine and find out that my car is worth a paltry $24,000. This makes me feel bad. I'm pretty sure I could get more, but it is not for sale.



Bob-

race911

As I've mentioned numerous times, you just have to shift back in time to have the same discussion. What a 911 was in the eyes of the 356 faithful. What we now call a "longhood" viewed in the context of a 2.7L era car. Shift forward to SCs, and both 915 and G50 3.2L cars. So when the 964, then the 993 came out, they were really big pigs of a 911--soft, cushy, luxurious, at the expense of raw feel.

TMc993

+1....And if the 993 was on the market today as a new car, with a new car price, it wouldn't sell because it is too "primitive" for "today's sophisticated driver."

We have to face the fact that the newest of our cars are almost 14 years old. It's a testament to Porsche that they continue to be such popular, fun to drive cars. Nontheless, they are not modern cars in any sense of the word.

People who want a 993-like experience in a new car would do well to look at the Cayman. Yeah, I know it'a a water-pumper and all that, but the size is 993-like, it has good power and the handling is phenominal.

That said, my 993 is staying right where it is for the foreseeable future.

T

DC from Cape Cod

No one who knows anything about these cars trusts that peon's estimation of market value. The general consensus is that he is over the hill.

Kika

Everyone has their own definition of what is raw, and what is refined. Probably the only thing that most will agree on is the relative relationship between them.

I think my 993 is relatively refined. Although I have not driven any of the later cars, 996 or 997, I have sat in both. Neither "feels" like a 911 to me, in the sense that the instruments are a massive deviation from the original 911 through our beloved 993s. I guess that could be considered refinement in some sense, thus relatively speaking, the 993 is more raw.

My previous 911SC was/is more raw than the 993, although with power windows and AC (pathetic as it was) was relatively refined compared to our 68 912.

When I first got my 911SC, I thought that was my 911 for life, but as I aged, and desired something with a bit more power and creature comforts, I sought out the 993.

right now, the 993 is the perfect combination of refinement and raw driving experience, and I expect it to be for some time. Yes, I agree, a special car.

as usual, YMMV.

As for the value of my 993, it doesn't matter that much to me as I have little interest in selling it. (although for the right price, it is always available for sale)

Slow Guy

Vic Elford (sp ?) (aka Quick Vic) was the guest speaker at Palooza this year. At either his driving seminar or at the banquet itself he made the comments about 2 current Porsche cars, Porsche loaned him a vehicle to transport some presentation material (would not fit in a 911) and it was a Cayenne GTS w/ 6 speed M/T, he loved it and was quite impressed with it's capabilities. The other "favorite" current Porsche is a Cayman S.

Bill Verburg

The feel of any car can be changed by the way it's setup. To many buyers of new 997s the GT3 is far too raw....

My 993 the way its set up is rawer than my C3 which is rawer than a stock C3,

Porsche is building cars for their buyers not their enthusiasts.

It's why the new Cayman R is so disappointing to many of us, but they will still sell everyone of them.

rsr91128

I guess I don't know anything because I think Bruce Anderson is a great source of 911 knowledge. His books, articles and training sessions are some of the only examples of "peon's" willing to teach people like me that are interested in the inner workings of my 993 and it's heritage.

As for the valuations, I am glad Excellence takes the time to print the Market Report and buyers guides. The prices listed are for "normal" 993's. Average miles and options, he clearly states in the market reports that additional value can be figured into the sale price for low miles or exclusive options.

If you compare his values to the Rennlist Sticky for actual prices they look right in line with what Rennlisters have bought and sold their cars for.

If you are looking to buy or sell a "highly optioned" or "garage queen" 10,000 mile 993 obviously the price is going to be higher. Your car is worth what someone is willing to pay. Mine is not for sale.

I will continue to subscribe to Excellence and read it cover to cover. I also think Chris Harris is the best addition to the writing staff and I am glad they continue to bring in objective and honest writers.

YMMV

race911

If this thread wants to go the direction of Bruce Anderson bashing, first let me know if you personally know the man. When I was 18 with a broken 911 engine he was extremely welcoming me at the shop (Garretson Enterprises) to pick his brain or generally be a pest. (As was Jerry Woods, though he was really quiet, and Jim Pasha at PCA events as he didn't work there though I think he helped with the IMSA Le Mans/Daytona/Sebring 935).

arjag

I'm betting that every Porsche owner thinks that the next generation has lost their mojo. I know I love my 993 for what it is regardless of what someone else thinks that it is worth. Do I care that someone else thinks that it is worth less than I paid or that my car is luxurious compared to their "raunchy" 930 (my brother's words after driving mine)? No, I love my car and wouldn't trade it.

Most of us on this board have not bought their cars as investments, a few of us are driving them "into the dirt" to be replaced with the next purchase once they die. But I do think that these cars will appreciate in value slowly if we look after them. That is because there will always be someone who appreciates the value that we see in these cars. Hell, I bet that not many of us would rush out and buy a new 997 and get rid of the 993 if they won the lotto tomorrow.

Face it, in a few years all sports cars will be bland facsimiles of what we know as sports cars. My e-type is not nearly as fast, or doesn't hug the road nearly as much as my 993 but I love it just as much and believe that it is probably more of a real sports car, by the classic definition, that my 993. And but that logic one could say that Porsche lost it's mojo a long time ago.

'nuff said.

boulderbobo

No bashing please!

Mark in Baltimore

Spot on, Ken.

race911

Thanks. Been around these things long enough. And no, I wouldn't trade the C4S for an earlier generation. I like soft and cushy for running around. Or (as I spam the forum with this picture for the third time this morning), the flexibility they provide. Out the door now to do some running around, then off skiing for a couple of days with brand new skinny snow tires just in time for what should be a pretty good storm.

Cactus

I would take any model 997.....for a daily. Would never replace the 993 though....

goofballdeluxe

I've heard you make this statement many times, and there's truth in it. Newer air cooled Porsches were often derided by the old school purists.

However, from 1964 to 1998, all 911 models were just evolutionary in their progress. They still retained the air cooled engine, many many parts, such as the traditional 5 ring gauge cluster, etc. and if I'm not mistaken, even some body panels (roof, maybe?) were unchanged for over 30 years. People may have lamented the changes in those days, but all the changes were incremental and based on the same ideals.

From 1999 on, though, they became completely different cars in every way. Although some folks may have decried the progress that Porsche was making in the air cooled era with the 911, the 911 still was philosophically the same car for all those years. It's not accurate to suggest that the changes to the 911 from the air cooled era to water cooled era were similar to the changes from 1964-1998. One was evolutionary, the other revolutionary.

The 911 now is a fine performance machine, no doubt, but aside from the engine placement, it's basically the same as any other high performance car. BMW, Porsche, Mercedes, Aston, Audi etc, all make very similar cars with very similar engine design, etc. The only thing that makes them different from one another is the shape of their body panels. Back during the air cooled 911 era, however, the 911 was one of a kind. There was not another car like it on the road.

Well, except for a Karmann Ghia or a VW bug maybe