Excellence Mag
12-16-2010, 02:20 PM
#16
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My comments are ONLY directed to his opinions of value - he is, by all accounts, a very knowledgeable person in all other respects. I am not the first person to have this opinion....it has been posted many times in the past on this forum...and I stand my position that his values are out of touch with real data. I meant no offense and I can acknowledge that my statement could be seen that way....and for that I apologize.
My car is not for sale either.
My car is not for sale either.
12-16-2010, 02:20 PM
#17
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Philip-- Very well said 
from 1964 to 1998, all 911 models were evolutionary in their progress. They still retained the air cooled engine, many parts, such as the traditional 5 ring gauge cluster, etc. and if even some panels were unchanged for over 30 years. People may have lamented the changes in those days, but all the changes were incremental and based on the same ideals.
From 1999 on, though, they became completely different cars. Although some folks may have decried the progress that Porsche was making in the air cooled era with the 911, the 911 still was philosophically the same car for all those years. It's not accurate to suggest that the changes to the 911 from the air cooled era to water cooled era were similar to the changes from 1964-1998. One was evolutionary, the other revolutionary.
The 911 now is a fine performance machine, no doubt, but aside from the engine placement, it's basically the same as any other high performance car. Back during the air cooled 911 era, however, the 911 was one of a kind. There was not another car like it on the road.
Well, except for a Karmann Ghia or a VW bug maybe
Bob & Ken--- Porsche sure got it right with your gorgeous "Ghias" 
Have fun on the slopes
from 1964 to 1998, all 911 models were evolutionary in their progress. They still retained the air cooled engine, many parts, such as the traditional 5 ring gauge cluster, etc. and if even some panels were unchanged for over 30 years. People may have lamented the changes in those days, but all the changes were incremental and based on the same ideals.
From 1999 on, though, they became completely different cars. Although some folks may have decried the progress that Porsche was making in the air cooled era with the 911, the 911 still was philosophically the same car for all those years. It's not accurate to suggest that the changes to the 911 from the air cooled era to water cooled era were similar to the changes from 1964-1998. One was evolutionary, the other revolutionary.
The 911 now is a fine performance machine, no doubt, but aside from the engine placement, it's basically the same as any other high performance car. Back during the air cooled 911 era, however, the 911 was one of a kind. There was not another car like it on the road.
Well, except for a Karmann Ghia or a VW bug maybe
Have fun on the slopes
12-17-2010, 01:03 AM
#18
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Funny, I tried a new 2010 C2S 6-speed today equipped with Sport PASM (includes LSD) and was very impressed overall. VERY quick and very refined. Completely different experience than the 993. I don't think I'll ever be 993less, but a new 997 appeals more to me than just about any other new car.
12-17-2010, 01:23 AM
#19
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I've heard you make this statement many times, and there's truth in it. Newer air cooled Porsches were often derided by the old school purists.
However, from 1964 to 1998, all 911 models were just evolutionary in their progress. They still retained the air cooled engine, many many parts, such as the traditional 5 ring gauge cluster, etc. and if I'm not mistaken, even some body panels (roof, maybe?) were unchanged for over 30 years. People may have lamented the changes in those days, but all the changes were incremental and based on the same ideals.
From 1999 on, though, they became completely different cars in every way. Although some folks may have decried the progress that Porsche was making in the air cooled era with the 911, the 911 still was philosophically the same car for all those years. It's not accurate to suggest that the changes to the 911 from the air cooled era to water cooled era were similar to the changes from 1964-1998. One was evolutionary, the other revolutionary.
The 911 now is a fine performance machine, no doubt, but aside from the engine placement, it's basically the same as any other high performance car. BMW, Porsche, Mercedes, Aston, Audi etc, all make very similar cars with very similar engine design, etc. The only thing that makes them different from one another is the shape of their body panels. Back during the air cooled 911 era, however, the 911 was one of a kind. There was not another car like it on the road.
Well, except for a Karmann Ghia or a VW bug maybe
However, from 1964 to 1998, all 911 models were just evolutionary in their progress. They still retained the air cooled engine, many many parts, such as the traditional 5 ring gauge cluster, etc. and if I'm not mistaken, even some body panels (roof, maybe?) were unchanged for over 30 years. People may have lamented the changes in those days, but all the changes were incremental and based on the same ideals.
From 1999 on, though, they became completely different cars in every way. Although some folks may have decried the progress that Porsche was making in the air cooled era with the 911, the 911 still was philosophically the same car for all those years. It's not accurate to suggest that the changes to the 911 from the air cooled era to water cooled era were similar to the changes from 1964-1998. One was evolutionary, the other revolutionary.
The 911 now is a fine performance machine, no doubt, but aside from the engine placement, it's basically the same as any other high performance car. BMW, Porsche, Mercedes, Aston, Audi etc, all make very similar cars with very similar engine design, etc. The only thing that makes them different from one another is the shape of their body panels. Back during the air cooled 911 era, however, the 911 was one of a kind. There was not another car like it on the road.
Well, except for a Karmann Ghia or a VW bug maybe
12-17-2010, 10:20 AM
#20
Bruce Anderson is God. Excellence is the Bible.
I agree with the commentary that was posted therein.
I don't think Porsche has ever resorted to marketing gimmicks the way it does now and I think some of the decline in 911 sales and values has resulted from that. A "Speedster" loaded with every option on the table in a weird Ford color with a PDK and weighty electric top and tonneau cover is (IMO) getting about as far from it's namesake as one could get. To use another biblical term- heresy.
Ferrari sells every 458 they can make. And they don't have 20 different versions of it. It's a very special automobile. And the new 911s (again IMO) aren't. They're still excellent sports cars (I own a 997 too) but they don't have the aura or unique feeling of the earlier ones.
I agree with the commentary that was posted therein.
I don't think Porsche has ever resorted to marketing gimmicks the way it does now and I think some of the decline in 911 sales and values has resulted from that. A "Speedster" loaded with every option on the table in a weird Ford color with a PDK and weighty electric top and tonneau cover is (IMO) getting about as far from it's namesake as one could get. To use another biblical term- heresy.
Ferrari sells every 458 they can make. And they don't have 20 different versions of it. It's a very special automobile. And the new 911s (again IMO) aren't. They're still excellent sports cars (I own a 997 too) but they don't have the aura or unique feeling of the earlier ones.
Last edited by George from MD; 12-17-2010 at 10:42 AM.
12-17-2010, 11:10 AM
#21
Three Wheelin'
I've heard you make this statement many times, and there's truth in it. Newer air cooled Porsches were often derided by the old school purists.
However, from 1964 to 1998, all 911 models were just evolutionary in their progress. They still retained the air cooled engine, many many parts, such as the traditional 5 ring gauge cluster, etc. and if I'm not mistaken, even some body panels (roof, maybe?) were unchanged for over 30 years. People may have lamented the changes in those days, but all the changes were incremental and based on the same ideals.
From 1999 on, though, they became completely different cars in every way. Although some folks may have decried the progress that Porsche was making in the air cooled era with the 911, the 911 still was philosophically the same car for all those years. It's not accurate to suggest that the changes to the 911 from the air cooled era to water cooled era were similar to the changes from 1964-1998. One was evolutionary, the other revolutionary.
The 911 now is a fine performance machine, no doubt, but aside from the engine placement, it's basically the same as any other high performance car. BMW, Porsche, Mercedes, Aston, Audi etc, all make very similar cars with very similar engine design, etc. The only thing that makes them different from one another is the shape of their body panels. Back during the air cooled 911 era, however, the 911 was one of a kind. There was not another car like it on the road.
Well, except for a Karmann Ghia or a VW bug maybe
However, from 1964 to 1998, all 911 models were just evolutionary in their progress. They still retained the air cooled engine, many many parts, such as the traditional 5 ring gauge cluster, etc. and if I'm not mistaken, even some body panels (roof, maybe?) were unchanged for over 30 years. People may have lamented the changes in those days, but all the changes were incremental and based on the same ideals.
From 1999 on, though, they became completely different cars in every way. Although some folks may have decried the progress that Porsche was making in the air cooled era with the 911, the 911 still was philosophically the same car for all those years. It's not accurate to suggest that the changes to the 911 from the air cooled era to water cooled era were similar to the changes from 1964-1998. One was evolutionary, the other revolutionary.
The 911 now is a fine performance machine, no doubt, but aside from the engine placement, it's basically the same as any other high performance car. BMW, Porsche, Mercedes, Aston, Audi etc, all make very similar cars with very similar engine design, etc. The only thing that makes them different from one another is the shape of their body panels. Back during the air cooled 911 era, however, the 911 was one of a kind. There was not another car like it on the road.
Well, except for a Karmann Ghia or a VW bug maybe
lets see, 1998, there were thousands of computers, now there are billions....
"times, they are a changin" "there is nothing as permanent as change"
lets embrace it all and have fun!
12-17-2010, 05:16 PM
#22
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Funny, I tried a new 2010 C2S 6-speed today equipped with Sport PASM (includes LSD) and was very impressed overall. VERY quick and very refined. Completely different experience than the 993. I don't think I'll ever be 993less, but a new 997 appeals more to me than just about any other new car.
12-19-2010, 12:44 AM
#23
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My Cayman S feels both more refined and more raw than my 993 and my former 1987 Carrera. I've also driven a 997 GT3s and a 997.2 GT3-RS, both also offer a great deal of refinement and rawness. I hear the Boxster Spyder, GTS and Cayman R offer up more of the same.
I don't think Porsche has lost anything. Yes, they sell cushier 911s, SUVs and sedans, but they still sell fantastically enjoyable sports cars.
I have to disagree with the notion that the H2O cars are the same as many other high performances cars. I've owned quite a few of these other cars and Porsche still makes something special. Still, nothing even comes close
I don't think Porsche has lost anything. Yes, they sell cushier 911s, SUVs and sedans, but they still sell fantastically enjoyable sports cars.
I have to disagree with the notion that the H2O cars are the same as many other high performances cars. I've owned quite a few of these other cars and Porsche still makes something special. Still, nothing even comes close
12-19-2010, 10:33 AM
#25
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I just read the article yesterday. I've not driven any 997 but my mechanic's 997 GT3 RS. It did not feel too raw to me, and that was just for a few miles around town. I will admit though the only 997 I'd want would be a GT3 or GT3RS.
I have the fortunate perspective of having owned a 2002 C4S, a 1983 911SC and now a 1995 993.
The C4S was a fantastic daily driver, it was also a hoot on track, without mufflers and pipes/tips instead. It was too expensive (payments vs income and need to save/401k) to keep but I loved its dual-purpose nature. I did not have it long enough to know if RMS issues would have appeared.
Without a Porsche for a couple years I decided to find a nice older 911. Found an '83 SC with 60k miles, it was immaculate mechanically and cosmetically. I spend several years upgrading A/C components and fitting SSIs and sport exhaust, stiffer suspension. It was a wonderful car, yes more raw, but needed a lot more power, and better seats (bolsters specifically). Sadly a drunk Harley rider totalled it and gave up his life doing so, and the car's built-like-a-Panzer construction saved my life.
Then I figured it was time to get the 911 I had always wanted, a 993. '95 specifically for tuning considerations, DACH X-pipe/DACH-mufflers to replace the catalyst and mufflers, PSS10 suspension, RS strut brace. Yes a bit more power would be nice, stock seats are fine, the car feels 'perfect', as in the perfect blend of older rawness and newer amenities.
I'd love a 997 for a daily driver but could never afford one, my Mini fits that bill. The 993 will be fully mine in a few more months, and the monthly payment goes directly to savings for future maintenance costs.
It's almost comical for me to read articles like the Excellence one talking about how Porsche should make the 911 model more 'special' (as in like a Ferrari). I have never even sat in or drove a Ferrari, they don't do anything for me. For Italian hardware, I'd rather have the Gallardo Balboni RWD edition but the money that most on rennlist probably have makes my life seem like a pauper.
My 993's needs trump replacing carpeting and upgrading a kitchen and so forth, but it's worth it every time I look at it.
I have the fortunate perspective of having owned a 2002 C4S, a 1983 911SC and now a 1995 993.
The C4S was a fantastic daily driver, it was also a hoot on track, without mufflers and pipes/tips instead. It was too expensive (payments vs income and need to save/401k) to keep but I loved its dual-purpose nature. I did not have it long enough to know if RMS issues would have appeared.
Without a Porsche for a couple years I decided to find a nice older 911. Found an '83 SC with 60k miles, it was immaculate mechanically and cosmetically. I spend several years upgrading A/C components and fitting SSIs and sport exhaust, stiffer suspension. It was a wonderful car, yes more raw, but needed a lot more power, and better seats (bolsters specifically). Sadly a drunk Harley rider totalled it and gave up his life doing so, and the car's built-like-a-Panzer construction saved my life.
Then I figured it was time to get the 911 I had always wanted, a 993. '95 specifically for tuning considerations, DACH X-pipe/DACH-mufflers to replace the catalyst and mufflers, PSS10 suspension, RS strut brace. Yes a bit more power would be nice, stock seats are fine, the car feels 'perfect', as in the perfect blend of older rawness and newer amenities.
I'd love a 997 for a daily driver but could never afford one, my Mini fits that bill. The 993 will be fully mine in a few more months, and the monthly payment goes directly to savings for future maintenance costs.
It's almost comical for me to read articles like the Excellence one talking about how Porsche should make the 911 model more 'special' (as in like a Ferrari). I have never even sat in or drove a Ferrari, they don't do anything for me. For Italian hardware, I'd rather have the Gallardo Balboni RWD edition but the money that most on rennlist probably have makes my life seem like a pauper.
My 993's needs trump replacing carpeting and upgrading a kitchen and so forth, but it's worth it every time I look at it.
12-19-2010, 11:48 AM
#26
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If I could afford it, I'd buy a new 997 in heart beat. And enjoy every second of owning it.
Comparing new to old, air/oil cooled to water cooled, is pointless. Time and technology march onward (as do government regulations). Market demands also evolve and change, and over the years Porsche's successfully developed the 911 to meet all of these demands. They could have (and almost did) at several junctures discontinue the 911 in favor of a more conventional platform. Fortunately for all of us they didn't, and the 911 continues on in the spirit, if not the letter, of the original.
The current 997 is a singular sports car for the current era just as the original was for its time. Very different, yet alike. That Porsche continues the 911 in the layout of the original is remarkable. And in this world of increasing homogenization and regulation of all things automotive, we are all the more fortunate for it.
Comparing new to old, air/oil cooled to water cooled, is pointless. Time and technology march onward (as do government regulations). Market demands also evolve and change, and over the years Porsche's successfully developed the 911 to meet all of these demands. They could have (and almost did) at several junctures discontinue the 911 in favor of a more conventional platform. Fortunately for all of us they didn't, and the 911 continues on in the spirit, if not the letter, of the original.
The current 997 is a singular sports car for the current era just as the original was for its time. Very different, yet alike. That Porsche continues the 911 in the layout of the original is remarkable. And in this world of increasing homogenization and regulation of all things automotive, we are all the more fortunate for it.
12-19-2010, 12:53 PM
#27
Drifting
All good points.. I find as you get into the newer models you have to get into the lighter sportier ones to get the "rawness" feeling you are relating to a 993. You cannot replace the AirCooled sound. But if you want RAW & Fast you have to get a GT3.. GT3's feel ENTIRELY different than the other 911's..
Mine is extremely Modded... But one of my sales guys just bought a new 11 GT3 RS and out of the box that thing is phenomenal...
Mine is extremely Modded... But one of my sales guys just bought a new 11 GT3 RS and out of the box that thing is phenomenal...
12-19-2010, 01:17 PM
#29
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Interesting reading about "is it a real 911?" etc etc etc... when I got my 914 in 1970 many in the PCA didn't even consider it a real Porsche and didn't want them in the "club." Of course I was so excited to be in the PCA I didn't care, and loved beating all the 911's I could in autocrosses.
I've had several 911's over the years and wish I had my '95 030 coupe back- at the time the 540i sport we traded it for seemed to fit the bill better hauling a couple kids around- it was a manual and probably as fast as the 911.
In between 911's right now- and one of those "kids" I drove around in the 540i now has a Cayman S and is looking for a 993 (he'd love to find our old '95 but I think it has "died"...)
And BTW, I was lucky enough to have met Bruce Anderson over the years at several War Bonnett Tech Sessions and Parades, and find him a real wealth of information. He's forgotten more about 911's than I ever knew...
I've had several 911's over the years and wish I had my '95 030 coupe back- at the time the 540i sport we traded it for seemed to fit the bill better hauling a couple kids around- it was a manual and probably as fast as the 911.
In between 911's right now- and one of those "kids" I drove around in the 540i now has a Cayman S and is looking for a 993 (he'd love to find our old '95 but I think it has "died"...)
And BTW, I was lucky enough to have met Bruce Anderson over the years at several War Bonnett Tech Sessions and Parades, and find him a real wealth of information. He's forgotten more about 911's than I ever knew...
12-19-2010, 03:21 PM
#30
Thanks. Been around these things long enough. And no, I wouldn't trade the C4S for an earlier generation. I like soft and cushy for running around. Or (as I spam the forum with this picture for the third time this morning), the flexibility they provide. Out the door now to do some running around, then off skiing for a couple of days with brand new skinny snow tires just in time for what should be a pretty good storm.