Self Gratification with Pictures - Outlaw 993 - Updated with Dec 2010 Mods!
09-18-2011, 01:38 AM
#256
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Hi Trevor
Yes M030 springs will make a noticeable different with your shocks and also allow you to lower the car. Not overly expensive either.
For a shifter set up my advice is to do what I did and go for the FD golden rod with the ball jointed front control rod and the RS shifter fork. This replaces all nylon bushes and rubber joints in the shift with ball joints, it creates a shorter shift with the fork (I cut mine down in length to bring the gear stick height in line with the original factory set up which I liked) and improves the feel and preciseness of the **** by 100%. No more nylon bush to wear and pop when it gets old and splits leaving you stranded. I think the full kit runs under $300 usd....
Cheers
Yes M030 springs will make a noticeable different with your shocks and also allow you to lower the car. Not overly expensive either.
For a shifter set up my advice is to do what I did and go for the FD golden rod with the ball jointed front control rod and the RS shifter fork. This replaces all nylon bushes and rubber joints in the shift with ball joints, it creates a shorter shift with the fork (I cut mine down in length to bring the gear stick height in line with the original factory set up which I liked) and improves the feel and preciseness of the **** by 100%. No more nylon bush to wear and pop when it gets old and splits leaving you stranded. I think the full kit runs under $300 usd....
Cheers
09-18-2011, 04:01 AM
#257
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I thought Id post a copy off the final dyno mapping for those with an interest.
Coincidentally the peak values were almost identical to the 1994 Cup cars. This is still a 3.6l engine but with LINK Extreme G4 ECU (same as Vipec v88 and similar to Motec 800), mild cam upgrade (993SS - DC21 114 lobe) solid rockers and adjusters, DACH X catless pipes, 36lb injectors, MAP sensor, and dual cone filter. New plugs, leads distributors (all parts) and coils were fitted. The car runs a RS LWFC, RS single belt pulley hub with dual alloy pulley wheel halves and lighter RS dual belt crank pulley.
Dyno was Dynapak 4000 hub mounted.
RW Peak was approx 308 PS and 270 lbft. TCF 1.12
Fuel = 98 RON pump = 93 MON
The car runs really really well. There is some cold idle tuning to do and some load compensation idle tuning to do to make it perfect. The lumpier cam and LWFC does create some challenges with cold idle and as the revs drop quickly coming to a stop with static idle still creates some pulsing but the above final tuning should get rid of some of that....
Cheers
Coincidentally the peak values were almost identical to the 1994 Cup cars. This is still a 3.6l engine but with LINK Extreme G4 ECU (same as Vipec v88 and similar to Motec 800), mild cam upgrade (993SS - DC21 114 lobe) solid rockers and adjusters, DACH X catless pipes, 36lb injectors, MAP sensor, and dual cone filter. New plugs, leads distributors (all parts) and coils were fitted. The car runs a RS LWFC, RS single belt pulley hub with dual alloy pulley wheel halves and lighter RS dual belt crank pulley.
Dyno was Dynapak 4000 hub mounted.
RW Peak was approx 308 PS and 270 lbft. TCF 1.12
Fuel = 98 RON pump = 93 MON
The car runs really really well. There is some cold idle tuning to do and some load compensation idle tuning to do to make it perfect. The lumpier cam and LWFC does create some challenges with cold idle and as the revs drop quickly coming to a stop with static idle still creates some pulsing but the above final tuning should get rid of some of that....
Cheers
09-18-2011, 04:56 AM
#258
Burning Brakes
That's about 14% increase in bhp. And 12% increase in tq. From OEM figures 272 and 243.
What was your baseline reading from the dynapac when car was stock?
I'd hate to ask how much those mods cost you. But considering Porsche NA engines are hard to milk more power out of - that's not a bad result. Once you hit 4k rpm - it must feel good.
If you had to do it all again - with the same goal of hitting 300bhp - what would you do differently?
What was your baseline reading from the dynapac when car was stock?
I'd hate to ask how much those mods cost you. But considering Porsche NA engines are hard to milk more power out of - that's not a bad result. Once you hit 4k rpm - it must feel good.
If you had to do it all again - with the same goal of hitting 300bhp - what would you do differently?
09-18-2011, 07:17 AM
#259
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Haygeebaby.
Those are very good questions!
I have 5 separate dyno runs on this engine over 12 months. They range from pre cam and LINK with only SW chip and stock airbox with Dach X, RSRs cans and LWFC through to today's final figures. Un be-known we had a failed coil pack after the cam install that cost and extra dyno run and resulted in the move to LINK (we were getting lower power readings than anticipated and stalling), before we picked up the issue!
The engine hasn't been "stock" for 10 years but was in factory trim at 272.01 PS and 243.13 lbft. Its a M0150 (non catalyst) car from factory as we ran leaded fuel here at the time it was sold new so its always been a strong performer.
As you identified the most noticeable improvement with the engine is that it pulls VERY well now from 3750 rpm to 6000 rpm - in this range its a screamer. Sounds loud to boot. Its also super responsive - the needle just behaves like its been eating blue pills! Thanks to the tuner the torque curve is pretty flat between 4500 - 5750 rpm. Hes also got the peak torque at 5750 and the peak power at 6030 rpm so the engine makes its peaks within 300rpm of each other and with an overshoot of a few hundred rpm it basically all over by 6200 rpm. It works well on the street where its not practical nor possible to wring every gear out to a 8000 rpm limiter! In some places the peak gains over factory stock are in the range of 35lbft and 35 PS! Its a very flexible engine now - much like the vario ram engines down low but with a bit more shove and zing through the gears and at peak.
What did it cost? I have a spreadsheet but it would be fair to say for LINK ECU, Cam, rockers and associated parts and gaskets, Dach X + freight, RSR with freight, RS pulleys and hubs, RS LWFC, labour and dyno time to install everything about 14k usd. Thats including all new electricals which was precautionary but excluding the LSD and fitting that. Its also including labor via a Porsche Center.
Bang for buck your TPC project wins hands down though!
If I had to do it all again I probably wouldn't. There's an honest answer!
I would do Dach X cat delete, RSR boxes with SW custom chip, LWFC and a drilled factory airbox. That lot would come to around 5500 usd. Id take my 9k savings and put it in the GT3 fund! Given the said modifications running 98 RON I was getting only 15 less PS and 12 less lbft at peak on the same Dyno.
The point of no return was the cams. If I had have known what I do now I would have not opened the engine. Doing so is very expensive and the cams although they really inject a new character to the engine, they are only a very very mild numbers increase - probably akin to getting rid of the cats without the added benefit of the improved sound! This action alone accounts for half the 9k difference and given that my engine was in fine fettle and didnt need a top end refurb it was all glory money. The second half of that 9k was accidental really. The cams gave the engine a different character and it pulled harder between 3250-3750rpm but everywhere else was down on power. It stalled regularly which was a first - even though I had an early car and had been running LWFC. We went LINK with that extra money (includes fitting, associated parts and fabrication and dyno tuning). While installing the LINK we found we had had a failed secondary coil pack probably for some time! So the LINK wasn't necessary but it did help in the power and throttle response stakes of course which was a nice bonus.
Apart from a Turbo or a Supercharger there are no easy wins for big bhp on these cars. I have a great car now with a great engine but this comes at a cost and alot of hard work, research and investigation with others that have tried these solutions. If I were doing it all again (Im almost at the end of a 24 month modification program and alot of $$$ spent) I would do only those modifications I recommended above. Along with 100kg reduction from stock plus options weight and a good suspension set up properly tuned I don't think you can do much better from these cars. Ive pushed this one so that it performs better than my old RS in all meaningful ways - but its not for the faint hearted. These are great cars out of the box. Ive had plenty of time (12 years) to enjoy mine in both stock, light mod, mid mod and high mod specification - so doing it that way spreads the $$$ pain and allows you to appreciate the changes....
Cheers
Those are very good questions!
I have 5 separate dyno runs on this engine over 12 months. They range from pre cam and LINK with only SW chip and stock airbox with Dach X, RSRs cans and LWFC through to today's final figures. Un be-known we had a failed coil pack after the cam install that cost and extra dyno run and resulted in the move to LINK (we were getting lower power readings than anticipated and stalling), before we picked up the issue!
The engine hasn't been "stock" for 10 years but was in factory trim at 272.01 PS and 243.13 lbft. Its a M0150 (non catalyst) car from factory as we ran leaded fuel here at the time it was sold new so its always been a strong performer.
As you identified the most noticeable improvement with the engine is that it pulls VERY well now from 3750 rpm to 6000 rpm - in this range its a screamer. Sounds loud to boot. Its also super responsive - the needle just behaves like its been eating blue pills! Thanks to the tuner the torque curve is pretty flat between 4500 - 5750 rpm. Hes also got the peak torque at 5750 and the peak power at 6030 rpm so the engine makes its peaks within 300rpm of each other and with an overshoot of a few hundred rpm it basically all over by 6200 rpm. It works well on the street where its not practical nor possible to wring every gear out to a 8000 rpm limiter! In some places the peak gains over factory stock are in the range of 35lbft and 35 PS! Its a very flexible engine now - much like the vario ram engines down low but with a bit more shove and zing through the gears and at peak.
What did it cost? I have a spreadsheet but it would be fair to say for LINK ECU, Cam, rockers and associated parts and gaskets, Dach X + freight, RSR with freight, RS pulleys and hubs, RS LWFC, labour and dyno time to install everything about 14k usd. Thats including all new electricals which was precautionary but excluding the LSD and fitting that. Its also including labor via a Porsche Center.
Bang for buck your TPC project wins hands down though!
If I had to do it all again I probably wouldn't. There's an honest answer!
I would do Dach X cat delete, RSR boxes with SW custom chip, LWFC and a drilled factory airbox. That lot would come to around 5500 usd. Id take my 9k savings and put it in the GT3 fund! Given the said modifications running 98 RON I was getting only 15 less PS and 12 less lbft at peak on the same Dyno.
The point of no return was the cams. If I had have known what I do now I would have not opened the engine. Doing so is very expensive and the cams although they really inject a new character to the engine, they are only a very very mild numbers increase - probably akin to getting rid of the cats without the added benefit of the improved sound! This action alone accounts for half the 9k difference and given that my engine was in fine fettle and didnt need a top end refurb it was all glory money. The second half of that 9k was accidental really. The cams gave the engine a different character and it pulled harder between 3250-3750rpm but everywhere else was down on power. It stalled regularly which was a first - even though I had an early car and had been running LWFC. We went LINK with that extra money (includes fitting, associated parts and fabrication and dyno tuning). While installing the LINK we found we had had a failed secondary coil pack probably for some time! So the LINK wasn't necessary but it did help in the power and throttle response stakes of course which was a nice bonus.
Apart from a Turbo or a Supercharger there are no easy wins for big bhp on these cars. I have a great car now with a great engine but this comes at a cost and alot of hard work, research and investigation with others that have tried these solutions. If I were doing it all again (Im almost at the end of a 24 month modification program and alot of $$$ spent) I would do only those modifications I recommended above. Along with 100kg reduction from stock plus options weight and a good suspension set up properly tuned I don't think you can do much better from these cars. Ive pushed this one so that it performs better than my old RS in all meaningful ways - but its not for the faint hearted. These are great cars out of the box. Ive had plenty of time (12 years) to enjoy mine in both stock, light mod, mid mod and high mod specification - so doing it that way spreads the $$$ pain and allows you to appreciate the changes....
Cheers
Last edited by Macca; 09-18-2011 at 08:53 AM.
09-18-2011, 08:33 AM
#260
Burning Brakes
Thanks for sharing mate - I agree with you 100%. These are great cars out of the box.
Some weight loss and little bit more power make it even better.
When I compare my driving impressions from the SC to the NA car - I have to say I sort of prefer the feel of the NA car. In NA guise the car was nicer to drive - well within my skill limits - not too fast - and a pleasure to blast around in. Makes you feel confident.
But with the SC - although still fun - it feels like a pitbull on a leash - and I'm not as confident and the possibility of things going wrong is a lot higher.
Some weight loss and little bit more power make it even better.
When I compare my driving impressions from the SC to the NA car - I have to say I sort of prefer the feel of the NA car. In NA guise the car was nicer to drive - well within my skill limits - not too fast - and a pleasure to blast around in. Makes you feel confident.
But with the SC - although still fun - it feels like a pitbull on a leash - and I'm not as confident and the possibility of things going wrong is a lot higher.
09-18-2011, 09:25 AM
#261
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
No problem.
I have to agree with you. I have always loved the way these NA engines feel. They rev freely and sound great. I've tried to enhance on those characteristics with this engine. I think somewhere along the line less became more. More money probably!
The driving experience is different in many ways to stock. I recently spent a few hours driving a friends stock 993TT. Its a great car stock, with gobs of torque and it puts a grin factor every time you put the boot in and ignite the turbos. However it lacks drama. Is doesn't feel as fast as it is and it can get you into trouble without you realizing before its too late because it doesn't telepath whats happening as clearly to the pilot.
Its not a fair comparison against my highly modded NA car, but my car with cat delete, dual cone filter & RSR is loud. It fills the air and makes your neck hair stand on end when its being nailed from 3500 to redline. When its idling there is a coffee grinder mechanical sound like gravel in a concrete mixer behind your ears from the LWFC. Only when the clutch is out in neutral of course. The RSR tranny mounds and RS engine mounts along with the RS shifter and ball jointed rods make the gear change very satisfying. You can feel the clutch through your foot and the engine through the gear shifter. The MAP sensor and open loop LINK ECU programming means that with the lighter pulley wheels, one less belt and LWFC the needle moves around the dial very quickly and drops quickly too. Its noticeably better than the motronics set up. You really notice it when heel and toeing. Its far easier to get a smooth heel and toe now than before. The torque was the other thing that was immediately noticeable. Mostly the before and after gains in specific areas of the curve - where you typically shift. I was shifting into higher gears earlier and having to look down a few times coming into familiar corners to find I was a gear higher than typical in that situation (and a bit faster too!). The LSD helps round of the mechanical feel of the package. You dont notice it until braking in a straight line on damn surfaces, accelerating on damp corners etc. Thats on the road but i guess on the track it would be more noticeable than that.
Ive never regretted anything other than a poor return on $$$ with a few of the modifications I have installed. However life is short. ...
Interestingly one area I have never had second thoughts about spending a (relatively) absurd amount of money is on the asthetics front - particularly interior. I get a huge amount of satisfaction just sitting in my cockpit. Even idling. From the custom made factory dials to the CF and billet alloy fetish gone wild, its a very special place to be. Its a very personal thing, but that and the exterior optics really give me alot of pleasure after the rush of driving the car has gone.
I mention much of above for the benefit of others looking to make some similar modifications.
I think the SC sounds like alot of fun. I contemplated it many times. I think you have tipo and therefore your options to get noticeable performance gains/ character changes were more limited. I think given your circumstances if I had have had a tipo I would have done what you did instead of what I have done. Once you've ironed out the wrinkles and got more seat time Im sure you'll be more confident with the package.
One thing tho. Ive got an old e39 M5. Its bog factory standard and a fantastic car. The only mod is a short shifter kid (previous owner installed) and I cut the cats out when they started failing (no emissions on pre 2002 here). Other than that over all the years of ownership I have left it alone just how the Germans intended to be. And guess what? I still love how it drives.
The fact is as our cars become older and more antiquated it frankly becomes more futile I feel to do anything much more to them than a few reversible cosmetics to suit ones taste and perhaps improve the suspension bushes and shocks and springs with fresher and more up to date items. A bit of reversible weight loss is a good thing too. As time moves on our cars become less "performance" and more "soul". You cant make a 993 NA go like a 997.1 GT3. In 5 years time they will be worth the same money and the GT3 will still handle like a scalpel and go faster and do everything better in every dimension than even a heavily modded 993 NA. The fact is our cars are old now and time and technology moves on. they are what they are and the soul they have cant be emulated by the later cars. Human nature takes over and we all like to fiddle and fettle. Fact is tho in another 10 years time people will buy a 993 and just leave it factory. It will be too costly and frankly too pointless to make what will be a (relatively) slow car go fast or be something it isnt....
Just some of my thoughts. I have a habit of writing too much. Must stop!
Time for bed.
Night.
I have to agree with you. I have always loved the way these NA engines feel. They rev freely and sound great. I've tried to enhance on those characteristics with this engine. I think somewhere along the line less became more. More money probably!
The driving experience is different in many ways to stock. I recently spent a few hours driving a friends stock 993TT. Its a great car stock, with gobs of torque and it puts a grin factor every time you put the boot in and ignite the turbos. However it lacks drama. Is doesn't feel as fast as it is and it can get you into trouble without you realizing before its too late because it doesn't telepath whats happening as clearly to the pilot.
Its not a fair comparison against my highly modded NA car, but my car with cat delete, dual cone filter & RSR is loud. It fills the air and makes your neck hair stand on end when its being nailed from 3500 to redline. When its idling there is a coffee grinder mechanical sound like gravel in a concrete mixer behind your ears from the LWFC. Only when the clutch is out in neutral of course. The RSR tranny mounds and RS engine mounts along with the RS shifter and ball jointed rods make the gear change very satisfying. You can feel the clutch through your foot and the engine through the gear shifter. The MAP sensor and open loop LINK ECU programming means that with the lighter pulley wheels, one less belt and LWFC the needle moves around the dial very quickly and drops quickly too. Its noticeably better than the motronics set up. You really notice it when heel and toeing. Its far easier to get a smooth heel and toe now than before. The torque was the other thing that was immediately noticeable. Mostly the before and after gains in specific areas of the curve - where you typically shift. I was shifting into higher gears earlier and having to look down a few times coming into familiar corners to find I was a gear higher than typical in that situation (and a bit faster too!). The LSD helps round of the mechanical feel of the package. You dont notice it until braking in a straight line on damn surfaces, accelerating on damp corners etc. Thats on the road but i guess on the track it would be more noticeable than that.
Ive never regretted anything other than a poor return on $$$ with a few of the modifications I have installed. However life is short. ...
Interestingly one area I have never had second thoughts about spending a (relatively) absurd amount of money is on the asthetics front - particularly interior. I get a huge amount of satisfaction just sitting in my cockpit. Even idling. From the custom made factory dials to the CF and billet alloy fetish gone wild, its a very special place to be. Its a very personal thing, but that and the exterior optics really give me alot of pleasure after the rush of driving the car has gone.
I mention much of above for the benefit of others looking to make some similar modifications.
I think the SC sounds like alot of fun. I contemplated it many times. I think you have tipo and therefore your options to get noticeable performance gains/ character changes were more limited. I think given your circumstances if I had have had a tipo I would have done what you did instead of what I have done. Once you've ironed out the wrinkles and got more seat time Im sure you'll be more confident with the package.
One thing tho. Ive got an old e39 M5. Its bog factory standard and a fantastic car. The only mod is a short shifter kid (previous owner installed) and I cut the cats out when they started failing (no emissions on pre 2002 here). Other than that over all the years of ownership I have left it alone just how the Germans intended to be. And guess what? I still love how it drives.
The fact is as our cars become older and more antiquated it frankly becomes more futile I feel to do anything much more to them than a few reversible cosmetics to suit ones taste and perhaps improve the suspension bushes and shocks and springs with fresher and more up to date items. A bit of reversible weight loss is a good thing too. As time moves on our cars become less "performance" and more "soul". You cant make a 993 NA go like a 997.1 GT3. In 5 years time they will be worth the same money and the GT3 will still handle like a scalpel and go faster and do everything better in every dimension than even a heavily modded 993 NA. The fact is our cars are old now and time and technology moves on. they are what they are and the soul they have cant be emulated by the later cars. Human nature takes over and we all like to fiddle and fettle. Fact is tho in another 10 years time people will buy a 993 and just leave it factory. It will be too costly and frankly too pointless to make what will be a (relatively) slow car go fast or be something it isnt....
Just some of my thoughts. I have a habit of writing too much. Must stop!
Time for bed.
Night.
12-08-2011, 07:11 AM
#262
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Im not sure there is an audience for this thread any longer but I thought i would post a few pictures from the photo shoot for interests sake. I have a whole stake of great interior and exterior shots. These were taken for the final phase of the project which feature in a fresh thread when everything is completed in the New Year.
Final dyno sessions went very well. We found the resonance flap wasn't set up correctly and was open the entire time. Closing it between 3200 and 5500 rpm and subsequently adjusting the timing and fueling lead to a significant change in behaviors. The mid range torque is alot fatter and flatter with a peak torque over 270lbft at a reduced 5500 rpm and peak HP of over 310 bhp at 6400 rpm. It really feels more urgent from 4000 rpm.
Final work includes installation of FD Motorsport ceramic coated mufflers stage II for a change - combined with the Dach X catless pipes these should sound sweet as the engine is wrung out on back country roads....
Final dyno sessions went very well. We found the resonance flap wasn't set up correctly and was open the entire time. Closing it between 3200 and 5500 rpm and subsequently adjusting the timing and fueling lead to a significant change in behaviors. The mid range torque is alot fatter and flatter with a peak torque over 270lbft at a reduced 5500 rpm and peak HP of over 310 bhp at 6400 rpm. It really feels more urgent from 4000 rpm.
Final work includes installation of FD Motorsport ceramic coated mufflers stage II for a change - combined with the Dach X catless pipes these should sound sweet as the engine is wrung out on back country roads....
12-08-2011, 04:09 PM
#267
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Gents. You deserve it! Heres a few more :-)
ironimages. I have fitted a brand new Porsche Motorsport 4 plate 40/65 LSD earlier in the year. Love it. Theres a write up about it on this thread....
ironimages. I have fitted a brand new Porsche Motorsport 4 plate 40/65 LSD earlier in the year. Love it. Theres a write up about it on this thread....
