964 vs 993
05-05-2009, 02:15 AM
#16
Addicted Specialist
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993 :
- oil change takes much longer with two drain plugs and two filters.
- 12 plugs to change at 30K intervals ...major pain if you DIY; large bill if you don't.
964:
- valve adjustments at 15K intervals ...ugh, hate that personally.
Off the top of my head, lots of little differences, but none that amount to much more than "differences."
HP and torque are noticeably different. As is the shape and price ...duh
.Personally, I love the 964 and think it is the best bang-for-buck 911 to be had. Great platform for suspension mods, stiff chassis, 1st usable HVAC system ...all with the old-school classic 911 lines.
That said, the 993 was my ultimate choice for "dream car" for its greater hp/tq, add'l refinements, but mostly the body shape which blends with absolute perfection the time-honored 911 silhouette and flares with a smoother and more modern nose/tail. Personal preferences, to be sure. But ones that made a difference to me.
As you have heard/read, both are excellent, but the PPI, owner's maintenance records, and your budget/preferences are more important than which model.
Edward
05-05-2009, 03:57 AM
#17
Rennlist Member
Hey Sonic, I would honestly say between a 964 Turbo & 993 looks would be a coin toss, I really love the looks of the 964 turbo. But turbo's aren't as reliable as normally aspirated porsches and do require more maintenance. The thing that scares me about the 964 is hearing about all the oil leaks the engine can have and that the owners were basically test people for the porsche designers for that engine. I do know that I should basically only get a 1992-1994 and skip the 90-91 model from what I've read so far?
Of course the 993 has its issues as well, the SAI, valve guides etc. I just want a great car to drive a lot that won't cost a fortune to maintain. My 87 carrera was pretty trouble free and I do drive the car the way it was meant to be driven. I will not baby, it will be driven and run out plenty to keep the carbon out..lol. From what I can tell it seems that all the issues are the cars that are mainly never driven, or driven on short trips and then shut down or left sitting for long periods of time, my car will not have that issue.
Wellcraft, yes from what I've read it seems that the 993's actually suffer more from the needed valve job or top end rebuild at times. Again it seems to be the ones that don't get driven daily or are constantly on short trips and the car never really gets to operating temps which takes about 30 minutes or so. I don't think the 964's really suffer from this although in my search I still see 964's with a rebuilt top end but my guess its because of poor maintenance on a 964?? Either using crap oil or going way to long between oil changes and not adjusting the valves every 15k?? Would that be a fair assessment guys?
Of course the 993 has its issues as well, the SAI, valve guides etc. I just want a great car to drive a lot that won't cost a fortune to maintain. My 87 carrera was pretty trouble free and I do drive the car the way it was meant to be driven. I will not baby, it will be driven and run out plenty to keep the carbon out..lol. From what I can tell it seems that all the issues are the cars that are mainly never driven, or driven on short trips and then shut down or left sitting for long periods of time, my car will not have that issue.
Wellcraft, yes from what I've read it seems that the 993's actually suffer more from the needed valve job or top end rebuild at times. Again it seems to be the ones that don't get driven daily or are constantly on short trips and the car never really gets to operating temps which takes about 30 minutes or so. I don't think the 964's really suffer from this although in my search I still see 964's with a rebuilt top end but my guess its because of poor maintenance on a 964?? Either using crap oil or going way to long between oil changes and not adjusting the valves every 15k?? Would that be a fair assessment guys?
The 964 does need 15k valve adjustment. Its not a terrible DIY, and is possible for some Saturday mechanics. In terms of crappy oil and a bad running engine its possible, but not likely. These cars need to be driven and reved up regularly on drives. The car does need regular oil changes. A well maintained car should have a healthy engine that is capable of going well past 100k mile without any major engine overhaul. Its all about PPI and stack of service records and it helps to have an owner that knows 911's.
05-05-2009, 07:27 AM
#18
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Why would you say the 993 is more reliable then the 964?
More I am reading or personally I am leaning towards the 964 just for the savings.
tej and tango which one you leaning towards?
More I am reading or personally I am leaning towards the 964 just for the savings.
tej and tango which one you leaning towards?
05-05-2009, 08:51 AM
#19
Racer
Any 964 (early or not) that has made it this far, has probably had all the issues dealt with. Currently I have a 930 and a 993. I had a 1990 C4 that I loved dearly. The 964 is right in between the sheer raw driving experience of earlier 911's and the very civilized demeanor of a 993. Your main thinking point is how much maintenance you are prepared to support. A C4 is much more complicated and potentially expensive, so if staying away from potentially expensive repairs is warranted, don't get one. I would say, if you like it, get it!!
05-05-2009, 09:21 AM
#21
Racer
Absolutely no problems with the C4. I actually think the problems with these cars (964's) have been exagerated, probably since 911's were all that super-reliable that the problems with the new model were all new.
Regarding driving my cars, if deciding which one to drive is my biggest problem of the day, that's a sweet day!! If I feel I need comfort, the 993 (although I just modified the suspension and is not that comfy anymore); if I feel the need for speed, the 930.
Regarding driving my cars, if deciding which one to drive is my biggest problem of the day, that's a sweet day!! If I feel I need comfort, the 993 (although I just modified the suspension and is not that comfy anymore); if I feel the need for speed, the 930.
05-05-2009, 11:10 AM
#25
Rennlist Member
Why do you say this? I think the 964 is at the bottom of its bell curve and the 993 is still on the downward slope. They made twice as many 993's as 964's and the 964 is a lot of car for the $$.
Both are great cars with the $10k you save on a 964 over the cost of a 993 you can do a lot of work to a 964 to make it a great car.
My 964 with minor changes puts out nearly 300 hp. I usually pass most 993's actually most non turbo/GT cars on the track. Very reliable, both cars have pros and cons, the cost of a valve adjustment by a pro is not much $$ and for the aggravation it is worth spending the money on. The 993 has had issues with lifters I have known some that need replacement at 60k miles and cost more than all the valve adjustments on a 964 would have cost up to that point to repair.
Basically you are looking at the same car one has newer styling and a kinematic rear suspension that only the best mechanics can align properly. the 993 has large brakes and a 6 speed. IMO the 964 5 speed is a better geared box, C4's can be a horror with the 993 rear suspension. I had a friend who had one and could not get proper tire wear because of it running through tires every 5k miles even Dan Jacobs could not get it right for him and he knows these cars well.
So drive them both i think you will find them more similar than not. I don't think you can go wrong with either car assuming you can find a clean example which is getting harder to find all the time. In either case put a LWF in either and see the car come to life.
What extra trunk space? they are the same shell with minor adjustments made for the rear suspension.
Both are great cars with the $10k you save on a 964 over the cost of a 993 you can do a lot of work to a 964 to make it a great car.
My 964 with minor changes puts out nearly 300 hp. I usually pass most 993's actually most non turbo/GT cars on the track. Very reliable, both cars have pros and cons, the cost of a valve adjustment by a pro is not much $$ and for the aggravation it is worth spending the money on. The 993 has had issues with lifters I have known some that need replacement at 60k miles and cost more than all the valve adjustments on a 964 would have cost up to that point to repair.
Basically you are looking at the same car one has newer styling and a kinematic rear suspension that only the best mechanics can align properly. the 993 has large brakes and a 6 speed. IMO the 964 5 speed is a better geared box, C4's can be a horror with the 993 rear suspension. I had a friend who had one and could not get proper tire wear because of it running through tires every 5k miles even Dan Jacobs could not get it right for him and he knows these cars well.
So drive them both i think you will find them more similar than not. I don't think you can go wrong with either car assuming you can find a clean example which is getting harder to find all the time. In either case put a LWF in either and see the car come to life.
The 964 and 993 were on my short list, and I picked the 993 for its extra trunk space (we tour in it), and multi link rear suspension.
05-05-2009, 11:34 AM
#26
King of Cool
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...Wellcraft, yes from what I've read it seems that the 993's actually suffer more from the needed valve job or top end rebuild at times. Again it seems to be the ones that don't get driven daily or are constantly on short trips and the car never really gets to operating temps which takes about 30 minutes or so. I don't think the 964's really suffer from this although in my search I still see 964's with a rebuilt top end but my guess its because of poor maintenance on a 964?? Either using crap oil or going way to long between oil changes and not adjusting the valves every 15k?? Would that be a fair assessment guys?
Early 993s have OBD I and hence there is no problems with emissions same way as in 964s.
05-05-2009, 11:53 AM
#27
Nordschleife Master
Guys come on. There both AWESOME cars! I wanted to pick up a 964 for a DD, but all the ones in my area were C4's or Cabrio's. So I went way over budget & get the 95 C4 (yea, I wanted a C2).
The bottom line is they are more alike then different.
Go drive both, get the one YOU like better.
The bottom line is they are more alike then different.
Go drive both, get the one YOU like better.
05-05-2009, 11:58 AM
#28
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this link pretty much says it all...http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?t=399143
The biggest problem I have with the 964 is the front bumper looks too heavy, visually the impact of this seems to vary depending on color. Still a great looking car and it has the more traditional lines which I like.
On the 964 turbo the flares offset the visual weight, they are absolutely beautiful.
05-05-2009, 01:38 PM
#29
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There is just far too much misinformation and hysteria (IMHO) about the 964's so-called lack of reliability. It just is not the case. I know as I did extensive hunting, research, and talking with wrenches and owners of 964s when I was looking years ago. I decided on the 993 for reasons other than "reliability" ...that's a different story. A well-sorted 964 is a stellar car, and a seriously good buy given its unpopularity in the marketplace vs the 993s popularity, hence markedly higher prices. If you love the looks of a 964 (which I do), the add'l cost savings in purchase price could buy some nice mods! 
Now if you are also considering 964 turbos, that's a horse of a different color. That is a seriously nice car that could sway me. Be aware that the 3.6 Turbo is THE one to get ...but you'll be paying a premium for that one. FWIW, unless you really need a c4, I'd steer clear as the 964's awd is heavier and not as well biased (IMHO), as the lighter, better awd in the 993. Hope that helps you a bit.
Edward
Now if you are also considering 964 turbos, that's a horse of a different color. That is a seriously nice car that could sway me. Be aware that the 3.6 Turbo is THE one to get ...but you'll be paying a premium for that one. FWIW, unless you really need a c4, I'd steer clear as the 964's awd is heavier and not as well biased (IMHO), as the lighter, better awd in the 993. Hope that helps you a bit.
Edward
05-05-2009, 02:00 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I normally would not care c4 or c2, but think I found a real sweetheart of a 964 and it is a c4. I really doubt I would be able to feel teh difference in power and speed. I could be wrong.
So what mods do most of you do to this car to give it that extra zip? The car so far has been chipped and has a lightweight flywheel. Thinking exhaust and air intake
So what mods do most of you do to this car to give it that extra zip? The car so far has been chipped and has a lightweight flywheel. Thinking exhaust and air intake