Charles Navarro

Yes, especially with your nice 993 Turbo, you really want to be using the right oil :-)

Doug Hillary

Hi,
FLYT993 - You do NOT want to use a ACEA A5/B5 (or C2) engine lubricant in a 993 Porsche engine - such a lubricant is likely to be unsuitable for this use and its use may lead to excessive engine wear!

Both of the lastest versions of M1 15w-50 are admirably suitable for use in a 993 Porsche engine (if you wish to use that viscosity lubricant) at the prescribed OCIs or as determined via UOA monitoring

Regards
Doug

ppashley

Stealth 993

I just checked my Amsoil 5-40 Euro synth.

On the back, it has the Porsche stamp of approval, along with BMW, Mercedes, Audi, & VW.

FLYT993

Thanks Doug. Wow, this is really getting analytical. I'm going to split hairs here and see what comes back. Here's what the label says (with the caveat that I never base any decision exclusively on a companies marketing hype):

Red line high performation motor oil is an all-synthetic formula which is designed to provide the greatest protection possible by using the hightest quality basestocks and additives. The polyol ester basestocks, which are the only lubricants capable of lubricating a modern jet turbine, provdide very good high temperature stability - much more stable than petroleums or other types of synthetics - and keep the upper ring and turbo bearings clean. Red Line provides 25%-50% less evaporation than most other synthetics of a comparable viscosity and 50%-75% less evaoporation an most petroleums. this allows better sealing, reducing oil consumption and wear, while improving engine efficiency. Red Line 15W50 pumps more quickly than a petroleum 10W30 down to temperatures of -30 C and has a high natural viscosity index (VI), which provides better oil film thickeness in bearings and cams than petroleum straight grades or mutigrades. Red Line 15W50 provides 20% more bearing viscosity than most petroleum 15W50s and synthetic 5W50s. The excellent thermal stability, oxidation resistance, and ability to lubricate hot metal - which is unequalled in any other oil - makes Red Line a superior lubricant for turbochargers and highly stressed engines. The high detergency proves excellent engine cleanliness and wear protection for even extended drain intervals - an improvement over any synthetic oil available. Red Line provides a 25% lower coefficient of friction than most other synthetics and petroleums, yet is designed for motorcycle wet clutches. This lubricant is forumlated to suit all major car, motorcycle, marine engine manufacturers' and diesel engine builders requirement and is formulated to suit the requirements of ACEA B5-02 and A5-02.

The last sentence is of particular importance, because it says "and" B5/A5 not "just" B5/A5. For those who tend to dismiss semantics as meaningless , this is a lesson. The key word in that sentence as it relates to the ACEA is "and". My interpretation is the fulfillment of B5/A5 requirement is an "in addition too", rather than meeting and ONLY meeting the of B5/A5 requirement exclusively.

All of the other data seems to indicate this is a superb oil for our engines, i.e, SL rated, ZDDP of ~1400 ppm, HTHS of 5.8, VI of 162, etc. Their marketing hype includes percentages which suggests they have done some empirical studies to derive those stats. Granted, I'm not a scientist and can't validate their testing protocols, but I have yet to find another oil that has that level of detail on the label of their products. Thoughts???

Also, Doug...the M1 you have access to in AU is probably different than whats available to us yankees. Do you have the spec sheet for the M1 15W50 in AU, so we can compare what is put on the shelves in the US?

ca993twin

(cross posted fro 993TT forum)

I just placed a call to Royal Purple. They were aware of the ZDDP issue with Mobil One, and said to stay away from "SM" rated oils if you want more ZDDP. They have 2 oils, a 20w50 and XPR (racing)20W-50 that are not "SM" rated. 6.95/qt for regular, 12.95/qt for the XPR.

I then called PCNA to get the official word: They are not aware of any ZDDP issues, and are still recommendeing Mobil One 10W-40. Royal Purple is NOT on their "approved" oils list. Sheesh. I guess emissions trumps cam/lifter wear.

I then called Pep Boys and asked about their synthetics... they carry Mobil One, Quaker State, Pennzoil, Lucas, and Royal Purple. All have an "SM" rating but the Royal Purple.

Dang. Why is everything so difficult? I have no idea where to find Motul. What's a poor boy to do?

(where do I find Redline oils?)

MisterRisky

FWIW, if anyone is in the Richmond VA area I have a local dealer who's been supplying me with Brad Penn. (that reads like I am buying drugs, geeesh). I'm happy to pass on contact info. He does not ship, so this is only useful if you are in the Richmond VA, or DC area.

matt777

That's not very reassuring.

Charles Navarro

Well, I know of now two instances where Porsche has been written directly to in Germany, in German, and received fluff responses avoiding the question altogether.

The closest think you will get to a concession from Porsche is that they halved the drain interval both in miles and time this year, down to 1 yr, 12,000 mi, where previously it was double that.

Doug Hillary

Hello,
FLYT993 - M1 15w-50 as sold here in OZ is the same formulation as is sold in NA. It is not always easy to find it here though as M1 5w-50 is the biggest seller (this version has Porsche Approval)

The main reason that Porsche is changing their OCIs back to annual and/or 20kkms is to standardise servicing routines as they introduce their DI engines

I have done considerable research on the emotive issue of "ZDDP" via Porsche (and many others) and using Approved and Listed Lubricants has zero risk of excessive engine wear in their non modified engines. Concentrating on one component in a lubricant's formualtion is very very unwise and fails to take into account the total Anti-Wear (AW) and other additives used in the formulation "package". Many new AW additives are actually proving to be much better than excessive levels of "ZDDP". This has been well known for many many years

You can use M1 products with great confidence - those that meet Porsche specifications are ideal in Porsche engines of almost any age!

It is estimated that almost three million Porsche and Mercedes engines have spent all or most of their life to date on M1 0w-40. No excessive wear issues have ever been reported due to this lubricant!

Any lubricant that has ILSAC GF-4 on the container (or PDS) is unsuitable for use in a Porsche engine (possible exception if you own a Cayenne V6)

I am not connected to ANY Oil Company and selectively use Mobil, Delvac, Shell and Castrol products in a wide variety of engine families. I have assisted in the development of synthetic and semi-synthetic lubricants over several decades for both Castrol and Mobil - I was once employed by Caltex-Chevron in a Senior role

I have only contributed to this Thread due to its heading and the fact that it has gotten a little off track

Regards
Doug

ddidit

Hi Rufus Steve,

It's Dindo! Yellow 993nb. I always seem to be parked by you at shows. I just got done intalling my Sparco Roadsters with Sparco sliders, brackets and BK anchors. When I had stock seats, with the H&R MonoBalls, I can say that the ride was bumpy. After the seat change and the car 100lbs less, it is ACTUALLY smoother and less bumpy and drastically more planted. I am a happy camper. Funny that I thought it would be even more rough.

Steve and everyone in the Ventura County Area: My company - Rytek Projektz has been a Projekt Manger for GM Special Vehicles for over 10 years. Work has been slowing down with them so I thought I would offer my services to p-car 993 owners and other aircooled p-cars. For one, I am an authorized dealer of BRAD PENN oils. I have 10 cases arriving shortly so if you want to stop searching where to get it, I can supply you as your 993 desires.

In addition, my company helped launch Spraco to the mass market back in 1995 when they mainly did racing support. Therefore, I am an authorized Sparco dealer. For those that want them installed flawlessly, I can perform the install or supply you with everything you will need. I don't stock much so I can pass that savings to you.

Sparco Roadsters fit our cars perfectly. I would say that they are designed for a driver under 160 lbs with a normal size bottom. My 6 foot 170 lb brother in law actually says they are comfortable for him. What is great about the seat is that it is a full race seat on top but without agressive lower support for easy entry on a maily street driven car. I have used this seat in all my projektz due to this design.

If you want to try the seat, e-mail me and I will arrange an appointment. If you are far, I can ship the seat ready to install, just bolt them in. No hassle, no thinking, no researching, I already did it for you. I can say that I can feel it in the seat of my pants that the car is faster and handles more controllably with the lighter seats. It definitley made my Lotus S4 faster given the lotus seats are just heavy as the p-car seats. Anyone need stock black electric 993 seats in excellent condition. Let me know because they are taking up space!

Cheers,
Dindo

matt777

Thanks Doug. Your point regarding the additives is interesting.

I thought that the primary issue re: this thread was that the Mobil formulations have changed meaning past results are not indicative of the current or future successes. Also, does Porsche still track air cooled engine issues? I suspect most data is purely anecdotal now.

Doug Hillary

Hi Matt,
recently I spent some time with some senior Engineers from Stuttgart - two had been heavily involved in the racing programmes of the 1960s to late 1970s era

In their older aircooled engines they tend to use 15w-40 (HDEO) mineral oils. Some engines are fed a 20w-50 mineral oil but this is always warmed to 80C before high loads or rpms are taken above around 1400

In all other engines they are firm believers in M1 products - and they have a choice!

As long as Porsche and other Euro engine makers maintain an Approval system for lubricants they will maintain a register of application. I suspect that they take a genuine interest in air-cooled engines families as these are still the high profile of Porsche AG. I also believe that this is why Porsche's Approval List was changed from commencing in MY73 to commencing in MY84 some years ago
This move excluded a lot of their basic air-cooled engines in all configurations
Porsche have had a long history of using HD lubricants (now called HDEOs) and all aircooled engines were factory filled with these for some decades

Mobil has indeed changed their lubricant formulations and will do so as required for compliance reasons etc. - so have most other Oil Companies and some Blenders. Serious formulation changes are very well covered under ACEA and API mandates

I have never seen a retrograde formulation change over the last two or more decades. Sometimes interim "tweaks" are required, usually due to metallurgy/technology/production requirements
When the now much lauded SL was introduced by the API many people said it was a backward step - it was a really great forward leap!

In the case of M1, the SuperSyn base fluids are used by a number of other Oil Companies. When combined with various complex esters it becomes a wonderful fluid, The arguments around "ZDDP" in its various forms pales somewhat at this level!

IME for Euro engines it is much better to go by the ACEA protocols and the engine manufacturer's Approval processes

Most lubricantion issues with all engine families occur when an unsuitable lubricant (worng viscosity, incorrect API/ACEA/Manufacturer spec.) is used - this is usually at the hands of people that think they know better than the engine' design and production engineers, or better than the Oil Company recommending the product! Mostly this occurs at the Service Provider level!

Regards
Doug
Doug

Mark in Baltimore

OMG. Could this issue be any more effing perplexing? I'm just a dumb guy who gets his information on the internet. Since this whole brouhaha started, I decided that Mobil 1 motorcycle oil was the way to go. Then, I find out that it may damage my cats and does not have enough detergents. Good thing I only bought four cases of it. Today, I decided to start putting Brad-Penn in all of my cars, but then I read these posts. I'm sure I'm not the only one who felt that the certainty of Mobil One was supplanted by the certainty of Brad-Penn which is apparently now being supplated back to Mobil One.

I trust Steve Weiner and Charles Navarro, but I guess it's asking too much for a general consensus. All I want is truth and empirical evidence.

RallyJon

This all comes from the tappet wear issue right? Doug says it doesn't exist, Steve says it does. Since you can't prove a negative, and presumably Steve isn't just making this stuff up, seems to me that Doug should at least consider this "issue" to have been "reported".