JET951

Just thought it might be of some interest , today I did no more than ten minutes of ringing around similar independant Porsche repair specialists( in Australia) and I quickly found another that mirrors Steve Weiner comments ,( I only rang two and the other was too nervous about the subject to comment ) remember this is only a result of what as repariers in the field we see and compare to years of experience , in my case 31 years working on Porsche cars either for a Porsche dealership or for myself and very importantly every thing I put in writing is of my opinion . Regards . BB .

Charles Navarro

This mirrors the regular phone calls I get from various independent Porsche shops, even some noting failures on brand new factory race engines with the recommened Mobil 1 fill. Likewise, many just call to thank me for my help but don't care to share where they are calling from (blocked caller id). I'm glad I'm not crazy and that there are others (in other countries even) seeing problems resulting from years of gradual changes in our oils.

Mark in Baltimore

Charles,

I think I am going to start using Brad Penn in my race car and may want to use the 10W-30 formulation in my Miata and Sequoia. For a street car, how long can I go betweeen changes? One of the reasons I like a synthetic is because of the perception that I wouldn't have to change the oil as often. Are there any downsides to B-P? I'd like to not get stuck with cases of it as I did with the Mobil 1 motorcycle oil.

Also, since my 993 is running Mobil 1 15W-50 EP, which supposedly has the proper additives, why would I want to switch to B-P? You may have already answered this question in this thread or maybe many months ago, so I apologize for the repetition.

Thanks for any help!

Dazed and confused,

RallyJon

Now that I've had it back from the shop for a week, I'm absolutely stunned at how well this car starts and runs in cold weather on 0W40. Since it takes 1/3 to 1/2 of my drive to work to warm up, this is a significant issue for me.

Charles (et al), are there any 0WXX oils on your list that have a solid 993-friendly additive package?

Found this old VOA for Lubro Moly 0W40:

Charles Navarro

I have had quite a few people do as you have, switching over to the Brad Penn 0w30 or 10w30 oils in their non-Porsche daily drivers. My suggestion there would be to go with the factory recommended drain interval and do a UOA before your planned oil change on each to determine what should be the proper drain interval for each vehicle. You can't go wrong at the bare min with the manufacturer's severe service schedule to start.

The Mobil 1 15w50 EP has lower Zn and P levels than the non-EP version, but still, I'm not going back to the 15w50 that they "re-introduced" that still isn't the older version we know works.

From another post I made on Rennlist this morning:

"The extended performance oils have lower Zn and P and to make things worse, have higher levels of detergency (primarily using a Ca metal based detergent) that can also lead to more wear based on recent published SAE papers due to the interaction between the Ca and the metal wear surfaces blocking the formation of the Zn/P anti-wear films.

And I know someone will point out that the new, reformulated M1 15w50 has similar levels to the Brad Penn, but they are completely different in their formulation. The Brad Penn is not friction modified, has about a third the level of Ca-based detergents (uses Mg and Na detergents in lieu of high levels of Ca).

Their reason oil companies use primarily a Ca-based detergent is that it is more thermally stable and will be longer-lived, so there will be better TBN retention (allowing for longer drains). As we've already determined, what the manufacturers have recommened for drains versus what should be done is different and we know that more frequent oil changes are a must, so trying to have 12,000, 15,000, or 24,000 mi or more drain intervals is not a concern here. I'd rather have an oil that provides better wear protection that needs to be changed a little more often. It's worth stating that Brad Penn still manages a TBN of 10 without having the need for high Ca levels. (Porsche's spec requires a minimum detergency of TBN = 10)."

Mark in Baltimore

Okay, Charles, thanks for the info, as always.

Don Magee

In reviewing all of these pages I see a reference that Porsche Motor Sports uses ELf oil. I may have missed it, but I didn't see the basis for this opinion. I have been using that oil and I am wondering if anyone can direct me to the basis for the PMS Elf statement. I am not trying to be a lazy bones and have yall look for me. I looked, but didn't see the source material.

matt777

I wonder if this increase in failures rates is with rebuilt engines. It definitely seems to be with the muscle car engines. You would think that broken-in engines that reduction in wear additives might result in long term damage only. Engines are supposed to run with full film lubrication meaning that the components are separated by a film of oil. My theory is that the majority of wear occurs during cold starts and other excursions from normal operating modes.

ps the independent Porsche shop I am dealing with uses Amsoil and only uses Mobil upon customer request. He hadn't heard of Brad Penn (no reflection on Brad Penn oils - just the marketing perhaps)

Charles Navarro

No. It's also happening with older, previously fine engines as well. So far, from the cases I have been directly associated with, there have been pretty close to what I call catastrophic failures on perfectly fine engines that were switched to an SM or CJ-4 versions of previously well-regarded oils. It's also the case with rebuilt and new engines even, right from Porsche, from what I have been told.

It's just now that we're seeing the trailing edge of the shortcomings of some previous SL rated oils. Remember, I've been seeing wear and trying to address problems going back to as early as 2003, if memory serves me. It wasn't until late 2005 that we started looking at the oils as a direct cause and had evidence that an oil (Brad Penn or Swepco), were adequate to more or less resolve the majority of the wear related issues.

That is not the case. There are different kinds of lubrication. I'll oversimplify for the sake of brevity. The purpose of proper lubrication is to provide a physical barrier (oil film) that separates moving parts reducing wear and friction, but there are many surfaces within an engine that operate with metal-to-metal contact, again popular belief, that are very highly dependant on a strong and robust anti-wear film. The top piston ring operating in sliding contact with the bore operates in a mixed lubrication regime consisting of both boundary (metal-to-metal direct contact) as well as hydrodynamic (oil film between moving surfaces) lubrication. The majority of non-corrosive wear occurs where boundary lubrication exists, especially at cam lobes, tappets, cam follower/buckets, and rockers.

This is what Steve and others have been seeing in the 986/996 engines, with the oil being too thin at startup, hence my recommendation of preferably using a 5w40 grade other a 0w40, and really, a thicker oil should be used where you don't have modern things like VarioCam to cause a CEL. There is no reason not to be using at least a 15w40 in an aircooled engine, unless you like and drive every day in Antartica.

FLYT993

Don, it came from Steve's (Rennsport) post #27.

Don Magee

Dan, thanks. I don't know how I missed that.

cgfen

uhhhhhhhhhh
that's the kind of thinking that has our country in George Bush's hands. :-)

taking advantage of the experts knowledge is an excellent tool in making an informed decision.
not everyone chooses to take an "experts" opinion without question.

be safe

Craig

matt777

Thanks for the reply Charles. One more comment...could start-up with oil that is too viscous not also create the same wear issues?

Slow Guy

Well I've read all the posts over the last several days and it's been quite enlightening and irritating all at the same time.

In my 993 I've used the Porsche approved Mobil 1 0w40 for the 2 oil changes I've done and I suspect that was used during the dealer services prior to my purchase. However after my oil change a couple months ago I have a very small leak from the drain plug at the thermostat housing, I suspect it's a weakened/cracked seat that holds the crush washer.

So, I ordered/received a new drain plug and o-ring and have crush washers so I plan to drop the oil from that plug only, replace the drain plug and refill w/ 4-5 qts of the Mobil 1 V-Twin in 20w50. This should bring the Zn and P levels up and at the same time bring the viscosity up to around 8w44. Hey, maybe I'll market it as THE perfect oil (soon to be Rennlist approved) for Arena Red cabs driven in middle TN.

My next oil change I'll be switching to the Swepco oil.

Edit: The codes on the Mobil1 V-Twin 20w50 4 Cycle oil are "API SG, SH/CF JASO MA". There is no API service "star".

eclou

At this past weekend DE a Motul rep was onsite as a sponsor and told us that in Europe Porsche will be switching away from 0w oils altogether and going to 5w oils in all the newer water cooled engines. He expects the same recommendation will be coming stateside soon