Unhappy with my Bilstein HDs - any suggestions for a substitute
10-31-2007, 04:06 AM
#1
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Unhappy with my Bilstein HDs - any suggestions for a substitute
All,
Approximately 3000 miles ago, I ordered Bilstein HDs and Euro M030s for my 95 993 and had them installed by Darrin at West End. Unfortunately, the shocks have not grown on me - in fact I'm really not happy with them at all. My car typically sees relatively aggressive street driving and thus I need a shock which is compatable with my M030 springs (which I love). My major complaint with the Bilsteins is their lack of compliance on small bumps. For example, the car feels as though it might catch air on freeway expansion bumps. Turns with small bumps tend to upset the car. The shocks are fine for larger bumps. In other words, the car (in my opinion) is overdamped.
I've had similar experiences with Bilsteins on other cars and probably should have known better ordering these for my 993. I used to own an E30 M3 with Bilsteins which exhibited similar behavior. On my current E30 325is (with M3 suspension), I installed Koni yellows which are a VAST improvement over my old Bilsteins. They have virtually identical "stiffness," but with much better initial compliance than the Bilsteins. As a result the car absorbs small bumps instead of skittering off line in turns.
Unfortunately, to my knowledge, Koni does not make shocks for 993s. Does anyone have any suggestions as to an acceptable substitute shock?
TIA,
Approximately 3000 miles ago, I ordered Bilstein HDs and Euro M030s for my 95 993 and had them installed by Darrin at West End. Unfortunately, the shocks have not grown on me - in fact I'm really not happy with them at all. My car typically sees relatively aggressive street driving and thus I need a shock which is compatable with my M030 springs (which I love). My major complaint with the Bilsteins is their lack of compliance on small bumps. For example, the car feels as though it might catch air on freeway expansion bumps. Turns with small bumps tend to upset the car. The shocks are fine for larger bumps. In other words, the car (in my opinion) is overdamped.
I've had similar experiences with Bilsteins on other cars and probably should have known better ordering these for my 993. I used to own an E30 M3 with Bilsteins which exhibited similar behavior. On my current E30 325is (with M3 suspension), I installed Koni yellows which are a VAST improvement over my old Bilsteins. They have virtually identical "stiffness," but with much better initial compliance than the Bilsteins. As a result the car absorbs small bumps instead of skittering off line in turns.
Unfortunately, to my knowledge, Koni does not make shocks for 993s. Does anyone have any suggestions as to an acceptable substitute shock?
TIA,
10-31-2007, 08:33 AM
#2
Drifting
Wow - Interesting since I am 'on the fence' for the HD's right now. My thought, as disagreeable as it will be to some, was to simply go with factory Porsche shocks.
10-31-2007, 09:03 AM
#3
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Another thing to consider is that the rear Bilstein HD's (got mine from Gert along with M030 springs and swaybars) have the rear swaybar mount as part of the spring perch. This means that the swaybar gets pulled up and down as you adjust the ride height. When having my car's ride height set and aligned the shop told me they wanted to raise the rear of car more while corner balancing to transfer more weight to the front but could not since it was going to compromise the function of the rear swaybar. This is TPC racing in MD so I have to believe they know what they are talking about. Mark Levitas of TPC did suggest to me that the factory turbo shocks are a pretty good option until you start putting "real parts" on the car.
I'm not really displeased with the ride quality of my Bilstein HD's but if I had to do it over again I'd probably go with Mark's recommendation so as to have a shock where the swaybar mount was separate from the spring perch. I would not have bought Bilstein's if I had known this was the case from the beginning.
I'm not really displeased with the ride quality of my Bilstein HD's but if I had to do it over again I'd probably go with Mark's recommendation so as to have a shock where the swaybar mount was separate from the spring perch. I would not have bought Bilstein's if I had known this was the case from the beginning.
10-31-2007, 09:08 AM
#4
Drifting
Another thing to consider is that the rear Bilstein HD's (got mine from Gert along with M030 springs and swaybars) have the rear swaybar mount as part of the spring perch. This means that the swaybar gets pulled up and down as you adjust the ride height. When having my car's ride height set and aligned the shop told me they wanted to raise the rear of car more while corner balancing to transfer more weight to the front but could not since it was going to compromise the function of the rear swaybar. This is TPC racing in MD so I have to believe they know what they are talking about. Mark Levitas of TPC did suggest to me that the factory turbo shocks are a pretty good option until you start putting "real parts" on the car.
I'm not really displeased with the ride quality of my Bilstein HD's but if I had to do it over again I'd probably go with Mark's recommendation so as to have a shock where the swaybar mount was separate from the spring perch. I would not have bought Bilstein's if I had known this was the case from the beginning.
I'm not really displeased with the ride quality of my Bilstein HD's but if I had to do it over again I'd probably go with Mark's recommendation so as to have a shock where the swaybar mount was separate from the spring perch. I would not have bought Bilstein's if I had known this was the case from the beginning.
Nice car BTW!
10-31-2007, 10:17 AM
#7
"Stock valving" out the box for Bilstein shocks/struts are not ideal.
Suggest you get a test ride in another similarly setup 993 for comparison.
It could possibly be a "bad" shock/strut. That will be covered under Bilstein's lifetime warranty.
Another thing is that you could have Bilstein custom valve your shocks/struts. Last i heard was its price at $85 per shock/strut.
Also, have a look here:
http://www.smartracingproducts.com/p...suspension.pdf
Suggest you get a test ride in another similarly setup 993 for comparison.
It could possibly be a "bad" shock/strut. That will be covered under Bilstein's lifetime warranty.
Another thing is that you could have Bilstein custom valve your shocks/struts. Last i heard was its price at $85 per shock/strut.
Also, have a look here:
http://www.smartracingproducts.com/p...suspension.pdf
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10-31-2007, 10:17 AM
#8
Burning Brakes
FWIW, I have a C4S (which by default I believe means it has the turbo suspension, but will stand corrected if someone with more knowledge steps in) and was worried when I bought it that the suspension would be too stiff as I drive it 90% street. I must say that I have been pleasently surprised by how smooth and compliant the ride is but yet is on rails while cornering. Now, I have nothing to compare it to as I have only ever ridden in C4S's, but for those that are wanting a factory suspension that gives the best of all worlds I would recomend without reservation whatever setup comes with the C4S. I have had many passengers (even my wife) comment on how suprisingly smooth the ride is. Again, I have never ridden in a non-turbo/HD/PSS9 so my opinion is not well rounded.
However, I too would like to lower the car just a bit in a perfect world...but not enough to spend a couple g's and risk being unhappy with the ride. Is there a way to lower the stock suspension on a C4S (only a small amount, no more than an inch).
Against what most advise on this board, I think I'll save my money for a rainy day clutch/top end or other general maintenance that might come up as I have only had the car a couple months. Besides, I am a true believer of getting a good baseline of what things should feel like from the factory before upgrading.
However, I too would like to lower the car just a bit in a perfect world...but not enough to spend a couple g's and risk being unhappy with the ride. Is there a way to lower the stock suspension on a C4S (only a small amount, no more than an inch).
Against what most advise on this board, I think I'll save my money for a rainy day clutch/top end or other general maintenance that might come up as I have only had the car a couple months. Besides, I am a true believer of getting a good baseline of what things should feel like from the factory before upgrading.
10-31-2007, 10:20 AM
#9
Drifting
FWIW, I have a C4S (which by default I believe means it has the turbo suspension, but will stand corrected if someone with more knowledge steps in) and was worried when I bought it that the suspension would be too stiff as I drive it 90% street. I must say that I have been pleasently surprised by how smooth and compliant the ride is but yet is on rails while cornering. Now, I have nothing to compare it to as I have only ever ridden in C4S's, but for those that are wanting a factory suspension that gives the best of all worlds I would recomend without reservation whatever setup comes with the C4S. I have had many passengers (even my wife) comment on how suprisingly smooth the ride is. Again, I have never ridden in a non-turbo/HD/PSS9 so my opinion is not well rounded.
However, I too would like to lower the car just a bit in a perfect world...but not enough to spend a couple g's and risk being unhappy with the ride. Is there a way to lower the stock suspension on a C4S (only a small amount, no more than an inch).
Against what most advise on this board, I think I'll save my money for a rainy day clutch/top end or other general maintenance that might come up as I have only had the car a couple months. Besides, I am a true believer of getting a good baseline of what things should feel like from the factory before upgrading.
However, I too would like to lower the car just a bit in a perfect world...but not enough to spend a couple g's and risk being unhappy with the ride. Is there a way to lower the stock suspension on a C4S (only a small amount, no more than an inch).
Against what most advise on this board, I think I'll save my money for a rainy day clutch/top end or other general maintenance that might come up as I have only had the car a couple months. Besides, I am a true believer of getting a good baseline of what things should feel like from the factory before upgrading.
10-31-2007, 10:33 AM
#10
Rennlist Member
I would suggest talking to Steve Weiner and see if he can revalve your shocks. I;m not sure if it's possible, but it sounds like the most cost-effective route to start out with.
Although a few people complained about the alleged rough ride and compliance of the PSS-9's, I never found them to be that bad on the street, especially when set on 8 or 9, the softest settings. Your butt may vary.
Although a few people complained about the alleged rough ride and compliance of the PSS-9's, I never found them to be that bad on the street, especially when set on 8 or 9, the softest settings. Your butt may vary.
Last edited by Mark in Baltimore; 10-31-2007 at 06:51 PM. Reason: I nit tipe si gud
10-31-2007, 10:47 AM
#11
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an interesting observation from my end which kind of confirms what you are saying is driving my track car on the street the other day. The car has triple adjustable JRZ's 700lbs front and 900 rear springs. I thought that up here in the pothole ridden streets of greater Vancouver, that would be a recipe to see my dentist sooner than I had planned. To my amazement the car actually felt much smoother on the small bumps than my cabrio which has H&R coilovers ( read Bilstein shocks). The damping quality on the JRZ's is really amazing although the car is really stiff with the spring rates, TRG sways and monoballs all around... So without having driven the HD combo, I understand what you are saying and maybe a good solution is to go then with a custom JRZ or Moton single adjustable shock like this one: http://www.jrzsuspension.com/index.php?id=17,16,0,0,1,0
10-31-2007, 10:56 AM
#12
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Another thing to consider is that the rear Bilstein HD's (got mine from Gert along with M030 springs and swaybars) have the rear swaybar mount as part of the spring perch. This means that the swaybar gets pulled up and down as you adjust the ride height. When having my car's ride height set and aligned the shop told me they wanted to raise the rear of car more while corner balancing to transfer more weight to the front but could not since it was going to compromise the function of the rear swaybar. This is TPC racing in MD so I have to believe they know what they are talking about. Mark Levitas of TPC did suggest to me that the factory turbo shocks are a pretty good option until you start putting "real parts" on the car.
Your installer didnt want to pull the damper off the car to readjust the ARB perch position therefore adjusting ride height.
10-31-2007, 11:04 AM
#13
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Danny, the reason your JRZ's and my Motons ride are so compliant is because our dampers use a lower pressures and valvings as part of the design as opposed to the higher pressure, DeCarbon design of the Bilsteins. If it weren't for the camber plates and monoballs, my car's ride would almost be plush.
10-31-2007, 12:22 PM
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Jmarc, and 993USMC I have HDs with 033s. Im in Calabasas and am on the Westside now and then if you wanna take a ride with that set up for comparison, I find that its not too rough.
I have a Targa so its a bit more rattly than the coupe and I dont find the HD and 033 set up too bumpy.
the car was recently aligned by Darrin—so it will give you a good comparison. Lowered to in between ROW and RS height.
I have a Targa so its a bit more rattly than the coupe and I dont find the HD and 033 set up too bumpy.
the car was recently aligned by Darrin—so it will give you a good comparison. Lowered to in between ROW and RS height.