I hate the Toyota Prius
04-25-2007, 11:06 PM
#76
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Ok Wayne number one im not an engineer nor did i ever claim to be one, Its an artilcle i read and found interesting. If its all wrong write another article debunking it and ill be happy to read it.
JERRY
JERRY
04-25-2007, 11:33 PM
#77
"Talking about the "carpool lane", I alway wanted a lane strickly dedicated to the highest tax bracket!! After all, we pay way more of the cost of roads and associated maintenance so we should have priority right?"
CN, you should run for office....u got my vote....
seriously, I have a lot of respect for those prius drivers. I would love to take the plunge and help save the earth, however am too selfish to change my gas guzzlers for hybrids. I contribute in other ways..more efficient lights, less plastic, recycle, etc. Everyone contributes in thier own way....
Hats off to you guys making a difference................I just wish those priuses werent su fugly.
sam
CN, you should run for office....u got my vote....
seriously, I have a lot of respect for those prius drivers. I would love to take the plunge and help save the earth, however am too selfish to change my gas guzzlers for hybrids. I contribute in other ways..more efficient lights, less plastic, recycle, etc. Everyone contributes in thier own way....
Hats off to you guys making a difference................I just wish those priuses werent su fugly.
sam
04-26-2007, 12:01 AM
#78
I have never understood the facination with hybrids when it comes to freeway commuting. What kind of gas mileage do they get on the freeway? We all know that the stated estimates are way over rated, so owners, please tell us, what are they in reality. So far, Martin is the only one who has fessed up. Sounds like maybe 40 mpg tops, 25mpg if you are really pushing it. I owned an '03 Golf TDI for 3 years and 50k mi. On the 220 mile trips that my wife and I made from SoCal to Vegas going 85 mph + with the airconditioning cranked in 90 degree F heat, stereo blasting, passing traffic in the mountain passes on I-15, I averaged 45-47 mpg. I still got around the same in city driving. And I only paid $16k for the car brand new. It handled great and didn't look stupid on purpose. Not sure why I never was able to get a tax credit or HOV rights. Personally, I think that diesel is the way to go and diesel electric is really the way to go. To bad that the Oldsmobiles of the 80's marred the American public on diesels.
04-26-2007, 12:38 AM
#79
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by Bokonon
I have been eyeing the biodiesels myself, but if you want to cut down emissions there are other ways too. (to nail the coffin on this thread!) lol
"Last year researchers at the University of Chicago took the Prius down a peg when they turned their attention to another gas guzzling consumer purchase. They noted that feeding animals for meat, dairy, and egg production requires growing some ten times as much crops as we'd need if we just ate pasta primavera, faux chicken nuggets, and other plant foods. On top of that, we have to transport the animals to slaughterhouses, slaughter them, refrigerate their carcasses, and distribute their flesh all across the country. Producing a calorie of meat protein means burning more than ten times as much fossil fuels--and spewing more than ten times as much heat-trapping carbon dioxide--as does a calorie of plant protein. The researchers found that, when it's all added up, the average American does more to reduce global warming emissions by going vegetarian than by switching to a Prius."
OK, tongue firmly in cheek here!
have a good one
-terry
"Last year researchers at the University of Chicago took the Prius down a peg when they turned their attention to another gas guzzling consumer purchase. They noted that feeding animals for meat, dairy, and egg production requires growing some ten times as much crops as we'd need if we just ate pasta primavera, faux chicken nuggets, and other plant foods. On top of that, we have to transport the animals to slaughterhouses, slaughter them, refrigerate their carcasses, and distribute their flesh all across the country. Producing a calorie of meat protein means burning more than ten times as much fossil fuels--and spewing more than ten times as much heat-trapping carbon dioxide--as does a calorie of plant protein. The researchers found that, when it's all added up, the average American does more to reduce global warming emissions by going vegetarian than by switching to a Prius."
OK, tongue firmly in cheek here!
have a good one
-terry
Drive your 993 to your local veggie burger joint.
04-26-2007, 12:54 AM
#80
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My wife's Prius gets 47-49 going to Tahoe. It gets 48 around town. It also meets current smog in California - something no diesel car can do right now. I'm not saying California smog is the end all or be all, but they do not sell diesels in California right now. I wish VW would bring in a 4 motion TDI wagon. I'd be first in line.
Greg H.
Greg H.
04-26-2007, 01:08 AM
#81
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I think MB, w/Bluetec technology, will soon be selling Diesels in CA. I'll take a Diesel M-Class or Toureg (not the V-10!) anyday. An efficient SUV would be great! Word is, Hybrid Tundra is on the way from Toyota...
04-26-2007, 01:34 AM
#82
Originally Posted by obchuck
I think MB, w/Bluetec technology, will soon be selling Diesels in CA. I'll take a Diesel M-Class or Toureg (not the V-10!) anyday. An efficient SUV would be great! Word is, Hybrid Tundra is on the way from Toyota...
04-26-2007, 01:43 AM
#83
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Yeah, didn't know about the "urea" thing...??? Hmmm...I guess I'll re-think it. Tundra Hybrid here I come! Oh wait, I'm the guy who started this post. Oops, I mean F-150s RULE!!! :P
04-26-2007, 01:49 AM
#84
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Gerry, OK so here goes....
"it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer"
i can't say this is correct or not but it's not the point. A hummer weighs twice as much or more
but it takes less energy to produce? Huh? Does a Hummer move us forward? Certainly
not. Does it use more energy on the road? Absolutely.
"The Prius is powered by not one, but two engines:"
Wrong. It has a gasoline ENGINE and an electric MOTOR.
"propels the car from a dead stop to up to 30mph. This is where the largest percent of gas is consumed"
Wrong.
"As any physics major can tell you, it takes more energy to get an object moving than to keep it moving"
I suppose our intrepid reporter didn't bother to actually talk to any physics majors or do
any calculations because this too is wrong.
"The battery is recharged through the braking system"
Wrong. The braking system has nothing to do with the battery system. THe battery is
sometimes recharged by running the electic motor as a generator on deceleration.
"as well as when the gasoline engine takes over anywhere north of 30mph. "
Wrong. The engine can charge the batteries at any speed, including when the vehicle is stopped.
"This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles. "
Hmmmmm. Lets see. I know - the millions of oil derricks, refineries, gas stations, and the
entire distribution system built around the oil industry is FAR better. Yes Sudbury is a mess.
I've seen it and nearly cried. Pointing this out is disingenuous at best without also pointing out
the environmental disaster that is the oil industry and its downstream consumers.
"The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius’ battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually"
What percentage of the total output is this? A thousand tons is nothing. That plant turns out
MILLIONS of tons annually. And the damage was done 5 decades before anyone even
heard of a Prius. What garbage.
"The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid. "
Bull****. Let see, $3.25 x 100,000 = $325,000. Did you do even the most simple math here?
The thing costs, what $22,000 to buy? THen it uses 1 gallon of gas for say 45 miles, at
$3.00 per gallon, that's $6,666 in gas for 100,000 miles. i guess then the maintenance costs are
$296,000? Clearly this is meant only to confuse people who can't do basic math. What
a farce.
"The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it. "
Notice there is no backup at all on the energy usage claim. See above for a model with
which to do the math. And why is it the Hummer lasts 300,000 miles but the Prius only
lasts 100,000 miles? Again, this is just plain wrong.
What a sham that article is. The writer should be ashamed. But s/he most undoubtedly
isn't.
"it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer"
i can't say this is correct or not but it's not the point. A hummer weighs twice as much or more
but it takes less energy to produce? Huh? Does a Hummer move us forward? Certainly
not. Does it use more energy on the road? Absolutely.
"The Prius is powered by not one, but two engines:"
Wrong. It has a gasoline ENGINE and an electric MOTOR.
"propels the car from a dead stop to up to 30mph. This is where the largest percent of gas is consumed"
Wrong.
"As any physics major can tell you, it takes more energy to get an object moving than to keep it moving"
I suppose our intrepid reporter didn't bother to actually talk to any physics majors or do
any calculations because this too is wrong.
"The battery is recharged through the braking system"
Wrong. The braking system has nothing to do with the battery system. THe battery is
sometimes recharged by running the electic motor as a generator on deceleration.
"as well as when the gasoline engine takes over anywhere north of 30mph. "
Wrong. The engine can charge the batteries at any speed, including when the vehicle is stopped.
"This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles. "
Hmmmmm. Lets see. I know - the millions of oil derricks, refineries, gas stations, and the
entire distribution system built around the oil industry is FAR better. Yes Sudbury is a mess.
I've seen it and nearly cried. Pointing this out is disingenuous at best without also pointing out
the environmental disaster that is the oil industry and its downstream consumers.
"The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius’ battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually"
What percentage of the total output is this? A thousand tons is nothing. That plant turns out
MILLIONS of tons annually. And the damage was done 5 decades before anyone even
heard of a Prius. What garbage.
"The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid. "
Bull****. Let see, $3.25 x 100,000 = $325,000. Did you do even the most simple math here?
The thing costs, what $22,000 to buy? THen it uses 1 gallon of gas for say 45 miles, at
$3.00 per gallon, that's $6,666 in gas for 100,000 miles. i guess then the maintenance costs are
$296,000? Clearly this is meant only to confuse people who can't do basic math. What
a farce.
"The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it. "
Notice there is no backup at all on the energy usage claim. See above for a model with
which to do the math. And why is it the Hummer lasts 300,000 miles but the Prius only
lasts 100,000 miles? Again, this is just plain wrong.
What a sham that article is. The writer should be ashamed. But s/he most undoubtedly
isn't.
04-26-2007, 02:21 AM
#85
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A funny story. I switched jobs and I needed a car I could put tons of miles on, get good gas mileage and be very reliable. My wife and I went and test drove a Prius. I was driving it up a very modest hill and I had my foot to the floor and the car was a total dog. I started taking my foot on and off the throttle to see if had any torque at all. At that point my wife started laughing and the sales rep asked what's wrong and she said there is no way in hell my husband is going to buy this car. My wife then rolled down the window stuck her arms out the window and started doing a rowing motion.
Weeks later I ended up buying a used 2003 Acura RSX with 5 speed automatic. I beat the crap out of it and I get a minimum of 25 mpg. Its not a Porsche but its still fun to drive.
Weeks later I ended up buying a used 2003 Acura RSX with 5 speed automatic. I beat the crap out of it and I get a minimum of 25 mpg. Its not a Porsche but its still fun to drive.
04-26-2007, 02:24 AM
#86
Three Wheelin'
I believe the Urea fill up is with every oil change, NOT fuel stop. The urea thing was the big issue with California because CARB wanted the cars to stop if the Urea tank went dry. Not surprisingly MBZ didn't want the cars dying on the road just because owners went to Jiffy Lube and never bothered to refill the Urea tank. Last I read the final compromise was that after the tank runs dry you'll get a series of increasingly persistant warnings and after 500 miles or so the car will stop if you don't refill. As a result Bluetec will come to CA next year. Undoubtably the urea will be expensive at a MBZ dealer but it is after all a simple, non-patentable chemical so if the dealers get too crazy I'm sure some after market supplier will come into the market.
Even more interesting to me is the new Honda diesel that passes all emissions regs, including CA, without any additive. It's due to hit the market in Japan in a year and maybe here later.
Even more interesting to me is the new Honda diesel that passes all emissions regs, including CA, without any additive. It's due to hit the market in Japan in a year and maybe here later.
04-26-2007, 02:28 AM
#87
Three Wheelin'
Steve,
There had to be something wrong with that car. We live at the bottom of one of the biggest hills in SF and I can easily accelerate up the hill with a load of 4 people. On the other hand, I think some of the first generation Prius were maybe like that. The later cars are not for sure.
There had to be something wrong with that car. We live at the bottom of one of the biggest hills in SF and I can easily accelerate up the hill with a load of 4 people. On the other hand, I think some of the first generation Prius were maybe like that. The later cars are not for sure.
04-26-2007, 02:51 AM
#88
Originally Posted by obchuck
I think MB, w/Bluetec technology, will soon be selling Diesels in CA. I'll take a Diesel M-Class or Toureg (not the V-10!) anyday. An efficient SUV would be great! Word is, Hybrid Tundra is on the way from Toyota...
I read that VW will have the 3.0 TDI T-reg in 08.
04-26-2007, 02:56 AM
#89
Originally Posted by 2Many Cars
Steve,
There had to be something wrong with that car. We live at the bottom of one of the biggest hills in SF and I can easily accelerate up the hill with a load of 4 people. On the other hand, I think some of the first generation Prius were maybe like that. The later cars are not for sure.
There had to be something wrong with that car. We live at the bottom of one of the biggest hills in SF and I can easily accelerate up the hill with a load of 4 people. On the other hand, I think some of the first generation Prius were maybe like that. The later cars are not for sure.
04-26-2007, 03:31 AM
#90
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I am amazed that there are people on this forum that dislike the Prius. I have to think that about 99.9% of Rennlisters are like me in that they like cars and they like technology. A Prius is full of state of the art technology. Take just the regenerative braking. With due respect to Wayne, actually the brakes do activate the charging system. There are two electric motors/generators in the Prius. On deceleration, the smaller (which is the starter for the internal combustion engine) is activated and provides drag just like lifting in a normal car. If the brake pedal is applied, the larger motor is engaged as a generator and slows the car in proportion to pedal pressure. The friction brakes only function below 11 mph or if extreme braking is required. Very cool technology. Don't ask me to explain how the out put of the electric motor and the internal combustion engine is coupled together because I don't understand it, but it appears to be pretty clever.
The article Jerry was quoting is the infamous "dust to dust" report where the author tried to calculate all the costs of producing cars from out of the ground to back into the ground. The author has admitted that there are some problems with his methodology, most notable is that he amortized the entire R&D costs of hybrid technology over the cars sold as of the date of his report. Since there is no technology in a Hummer, it gained a huge advantage right there. The author has stated that the results of his methodology would be very different in the future.
I figure the more people drive Priuses, the better technology will get and who know where that will lead. Also, the more gas left over for me to waste at the track.
Greg H.
The article Jerry was quoting is the infamous "dust to dust" report where the author tried to calculate all the costs of producing cars from out of the ground to back into the ground. The author has admitted that there are some problems with his methodology, most notable is that he amortized the entire R&D costs of hybrid technology over the cars sold as of the date of his report. Since there is no technology in a Hummer, it gained a huge advantage right there. The author has stated that the results of his methodology would be very different in the future.
I figure the more people drive Priuses, the better technology will get and who know where that will lead. Also, the more gas left over for me to waste at the track.
Greg H.