Boeing 717

"it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer"
i can't say this is correct or not but it's not the point. A hummer weighs twice as much or more
but it takes less energy to produce? Huh? Does a Hummer move us forward? Certainly
not. Does it use more energy on the road? Absolutely.

Uhm...THATS THE POINT OF THE ENTIRE ARTICLE!!! Whats the weight of the car have to do with energy use in the production process??? Somone could probably use less energy to produce a 20 ton lead weight than they could an automobile.

"As any physics major can tell you, it takes more energy to get an object moving than to keep it moving"
I suppose our intrepid reporter didn't bother to actually talk to any physics majors or do
any calculations because this too is wrong.

I was a physics major, ever heard of INERTIA or coeffiecient of static friction versus kinetic friction??? Push a heavy cart... at first you will have to push hard then it would require little force to keep it moving its called inertia. Ever wonder why it takes more gas to drive in the city versus the highway its called acceleration, hence more energy to get moving than to keep moving.

"The battery is recharged through the braking system"
Wrong. The braking system has nothing to do with the battery system. THe battery is
sometimes recharged by running the electic motor as a generator on deceleration.

Yea thats correct but some people could read deceleration as braking no biggy there.

"This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles. "
Hmmmmm. Lets see. I know - the millions of oil derricks, refineries, gas stations, and the
entire distribution system built around the oil industry is FAR better. Yes Sudbury is a mess.
I've seen it and nearly cried. Pointing this out is disingenuous at best without also pointing out
the environmental disaster that is the oil industry and its downstream consumers.

Your right about the oil companies no argument that they trash the environment but if people are buying priuses to save the planet sudbury is not really a step in the right direction either.

"The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius’ battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually"
What percentage of the total output is this? A thousand tons is nothing. That plant turns out
MILLIONS of tons annually. And the damage was done 5 decades before anyone even
heard of a Prius. What garbage.

Actually it turns out about 25000 ( just a little shy of millions) tons of nickel annually and again if your driving a prius to save the planet how could you live with yourself for using nickel from a company like falconbridge.

"The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid. "
Bull****. Let see, $3.25 x 100,000 = $325,000. Did you do even the most simple math here?
The thing costs, what $22,000 to buy? THen it uses 1 gallon of gas for say 45 miles, at
$3.00 per gallon, that's $6,666 in gas for 100,000 miles. i guess then the maintenance costs are
$296,000? Clearly this is meant only to confuse people who can't do basic math. What
a farce.

Can you even read you may be the one confused??? Its the TOTAL COMBINED ENERGY TO PRODUCE NOT TO DRIVE...DUH

Through a study by CNW Marketing called “Dust to Dust,” THE TOTAL COMBINED ENERGY is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.

Notice there is no backup at all on the energy usage claim. See above for a model with
which to do the math. And why is it the Hummer lasts 300,000 miles but the Prius only
lasts 100,000 miles? Again, this is just plain wrong.

Yea your backups are so much more enlightening and accurate.
Heres a link to see why that company (which i guess studies all car manufacturers and their energy consumption) chose the 100000 mile platform for the prius.

http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/

If someone wants to by a prius cause its leading edge technology or they are getting kick *** gas mileage more power to you but if your doing it to save the planet you better start stocking up on your carbon offsets.

JERRY

Boeing 717

Oh and as for my calling the prius a P.O.S. i retract that, sorry if i offended anyone, im sure its a great car, i just label all cars that arent porsches..... POS's.

Jerry

jangobox

I actually get better gas mileage in the summer then in the winter. Even with the the A/C on the freeway doing about 80 mph I get between 46 to 48 mpg. I am sure it would be even better if I slowed down. In the winter it is much less do to the fact the engine is on longer to keep the cabin warm , then I average about 44 mpg , again doing 80 mph. But in both seasons in heavy traffic where you hardly even move ,say 5 to 10 mph, I average 100+ mpg gallon, at that point it is pure electric all the way (city driving basically). It is good stuff.

TRINITONY

I want one.

wayne993

Jerry,

"Through a study by CNW Marketing called “Dust to Dust,” THE TOTAL COMBINED ENERGY is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid."

This is such utter BS. You have been duped my friend. I showed that
the cost of ownership to the owner is on the order of $30,000 for the first
100,000 miles. Where does the other $290,000 come from? Toyota
sucks it up in the form of energy used to produce the vehicle? No.
That $325,000 number is WRONG. It's actually so wrong, it's
laughable. Forget about CNW Marketing. They have an agenda. They have
no interest in facts. Look to where they are funded. I think I can guess
where it will come from.


"I was a physics major, ever heard of INERTIA or coeffiecient of static friction versus kinetic friction??? Push a heavy cart... at first you will have to push hard then it would require little force to keep it moving its called inertia. Ever wonder why it takes more gas to drive in the city versus the highway its called acceleration, hence more energy to get moving than to keep moving."

A car uses more energy in the city per mile driven BECAUSE IT IS IDLING
AND HEATING THE BRAKING SYSTEM. NOT BECAUSE IT USES MORE
GAS ACCELERATING TO 30 MPH. Sheesh. The article said
"it takes more energy to get an object moving than to keep it moving"
and it was in the context of operating a motor vehicle. THis might be true
for those of us who live in a vacuum. For the others who live in a viscous
fluid we like to call "air", it simply ain't so. If you look at the
total energy used by a vehicle and figure out the percentage of that which
is attributable to acceleration from 0 to 30 MPH, you will find that the
amount used as such is a small fraction.

On the energy used to produce the Prius vs a Hummer, and given the
other inaccuracies of the article I find it difficult to believe that a 8,000
lb vehicle takes less energy to make than a 3000 lb car. THey are made
of the same "stuff" with the exception of the battery - that is, plastic,
rubber, some copper, leather, and a bunch of steel. What they want you
to believe is that a smallish battery pack takes more energy to produce
than the 5000 lb difference in the weights of the vehicles. Bullpucky.
And anyhow the energy used to produce the vehilce is small comapred to
the energy used to operate it over its lifetime. So that's another problem
with their math. Here, it's so simple I'll do it here:
Hummer @ 10 MPG for 100,000 miles consumes 10,000 gallons of gas.
Prius @ 50 MPG for 100,000 miles consumes 2,000 gallons of gas.
So the battery pack of the Prius takes the equivalent of 8,000 gallons
of gas worth of energy to produce? Wrong.


On Falconbridge, this is from Wikipedia:
The late 1970s saw the company play a role, alongside INCO, in the environmental reclamation efforts undertaken in the Sudbury region. As part of this, a new, more efficient smelter was opened, as well as a facility for the production of sulphuric acid. This commercially saleable chemical had been a source of significant ecological damage when it was produced in the atmosphere by the reaction of smelter emissions. The new acid plant allowed this effect to be greatly reduced by catalyzing the reaction before emission, while producing additional revenue from the sale of the acid.

So we see that the damage done to the Sudbury area has been addressed.
As I said before, the damage was already done. Blaming that on a product
designed in the current millenia is highly disingenuous and inaccurate.
Also, the galvanizing processes used to protect steel are large users
of nickel. Has the the author added that into the mix? Because the
Hummer has maybe 4000 lbs more steel in it than the Prius.

THe article about using 100,000 miles for the Prius is a joke. As the
article you quoted first, I read the first 10 lines and can't read any more.
It's a mess. To wit: their #1 reason is a guess. It gets worse from there.

I don't have any more time to debate with you how a car that is sold for
$22k and uses around $10k in gas over its lifetime somehow costs
$325,000. If you want to believe that, that's fine with me. But it seems
like you've got $290,000 to explain somehow.

W.

luv2ride

Just so far Hybrids MPG haven't impressed me much. And yea China scares me.

N51

What are dealers offering on new car discounts?

Noah

N51

Is is fair to state the Prius gets 45mpg?

I don't think so, and here's why:
For my model and for simplification, assume all costs as fixed.

Part of the fuel cost is in the batteries. According to figures pulled from the 'net, replacement cost is ~$3000.
Assuming the batteries last for 150k miles and the car averages 45mpg, that's 3333 gallons of fuel.
The $3k batteries represent 1000 gallons of fuel @ $3 per gallon.
150k miles divided by 4333 = 34.6mpg

More thoughts: The new car buyer is paying up front(new batteries) for future fuel use. IMO, that's poor economics.
In addition, if the buyer sells the car before the useful life of the batteries is met, then he/she has paid for fuel never used.

Just for fun: If one were to invest $3k @ 6%per annum, at the end of four years, the value would be ~$3787. The present tax credit on the new Prius is $787.50

For those Prius and future Prius owners, this may be some interesting reading. A little peak into your future costs.

http://www.infomine.com/investment/h...s.asp?c=Nickel

Noah

swmic

texas911

Noah. Assuming gas stays at a constant price, still the net effect is that the Prius gets ~45mpg and didn't use an extra $3000 worth of gas regardless of money savings. If you browse the Prius board, everyone realizes that the Prius isn't an econo car, but a high end car designed to not use a lot of fuel. The top of the line Prius is right at $30K. Do you think people are buying this to save money? So all you haters just keep trying to come up with BS reasons to hate the Prius. The fact is its a great car with loads of technology that gets incredible mpg and is classified as a mid sized car.

Regarding nickel pricing. I guess Porsche prices will go up to as Porsche cars use nickel in its production, virtually all cars use nickel.

Greg H.

If everyone were a member of the Flat Earth Society, would technology ever advance? Why should I buy a computer now when they are going to be half the price and twice a good in two years? I should put the money in the bank at 6% interest and continue to use my abacus.

Greg H.

smddanny

I too am shocked that people hate this car. Ok, maybe it is ugly but that is subjective like the best color for a 911. The Prius is a nice unique piece of engineering technology just like our 911s. That is why I love the 911, not because it is pretty, fast or has creature comforts.. because it is a very unique peice of engineering. I find the 996 and 997 slightly less unique although I am certain that they can leap a higher building. The Prius is a unique piece since it is engieered to use less fuel. Will it solve world hunger? No, but it is a stepping stone on the path of progress. Why categorically hate this car that tries to achieve something? I find it easier to hate the cars that have no engineering content and try to achieve nothing but a new bumper or fender line.

I tend to think less of new cars with solid rear axles and drum brakes..... I don't understand why cars still have these "features". I tend think that is why GM is in the position it is today. Seems like those that hate the Prius would also find the 911 dumb.

Hating the Prius sounds more like prejudice and politics than anything else.

DC from Cape Cod

I am utterly amazed that this topic generated more than 10 posts, let alone 104.

wayne993

Noah,

Your points are well taken but the issue for most is not always pure cost
as expressed purely in dollars. Lets not lose sight that in fact there is not really 1000 gallons of extra fuel used when the batteries are replaced.
That is, although the cost of operation is higher than a 45 MPG gasoline
car, it really is a 45 MPG car. It is NOT a 34 MPG car. Some may read
your post and get fooled into thinking "hey this guy says it's a 34 MPG
car".
The main care-abouts for most people who buy a hybrid I believe are:
(i) they are not consuming liquid fuel that is purchased from
a place where people would just as soon kill you as sell you oil; and
(ii) they are producing less greenhouse gas.


W.

kkim

GF sold her 2000 Lexus ES300 and bought a 07 Prius recently. Her commute takes her through some of the most brutal traffic on Hawaii's freeways. Her gas mileage in the Lexus was 23mpg, in the Prius it's between 47-50mpg over the same commute. She loves the $25 fill ups. She's happy... that's all that matters.