True Enthusiasts - no longer needed
10-02-2005, 04:41 PM
#61
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I think that we have to rememeber that if it weren't for the 'non-enthusiasts' or 'status-seekers' Porsche would have gpne bust a long time ago. People take a lot time having a pop at the Boxster or the 944/968 and more recently the cayenne and probably the Panamera too. All of these cars enabled Porsche to continue making the cars that we love (and lust after). Yes its true that not all recent year models can be classified as 'entusiasts' cars, but then that is exactly what got Porsche into trouble in the first place. Hence, P-cars are becoming (in the main) easier to drive/maintain etc to appeal to the mass market audience. But the opportunity is still there to produce the 'enthusiast' cars within the range (GT3, GT3RS, TT-S, GT2). These are the cars where the majority of owners would be seen to be 'enthusiasts' - I am sure of that.
OK, gone are the times when every 911 was an enthusiasts car (nee 993) - but so what? Porsche is thriving as a company and is moving to continue its growth (buying 20% of VW this week was a smart move indeed). Still building cars for us 'enthusiasts' to think about owning, and now, moving back into competition racing with a factory team?
Still think that Porsche is over? think again.
all in my VHO. of course!!
Surj.
OK, gone are the times when every 911 was an enthusiasts car (nee 993) - but so what? Porsche is thriving as a company and is moving to continue its growth (buying 20% of VW this week was a smart move indeed). Still building cars for us 'enthusiasts' to think about owning, and now, moving back into competition racing with a factory team?
Still think that Porsche is over? think again.
all in my VHO. of course!!
Surj.
10-02-2005, 06:23 PM
#62
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by p_carfan
After 35 years of Porsche / 911 variant ownership, financial and psychological abuse at the hands of the stealerships (don't get me wrong....I'm heavy into the DIY stuff, basically why I've hung on this long). My next ride will most likely be a Lamborghini Gallardo. Porsche, as the marque that I've loved from my teenage years is DONE IMHO.
BTW Lambo dealers........Do back flips kissing your ***, sorry I like that.
BTW Lambo dealers........Do back flips kissing your ***, sorry I like that.
As far as I'm concerned from the corporate level Porsche has lost direction, that's my opinion.......for me. Unforuntantly, from time to time you will have to deal with the dealer (most cases) they are a bunch of greedy thieves who will F*ck you out of your last nickle if you let them. As for cars, I'm looking for something unique, something fun, something that makes me think to myself Oh WOW!! Money is not really the issue, I wouldn't get a loan and if I couldn't afford it as a frivolous expense it wouldn't be considered.
Last edited by p_carfan; 10-02-2005 at 08:03 PM.
10-02-2005, 06:47 PM
#63
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Originally Posted by pcar964
Yeah I know, I don't really blame Porsche for seeking profits above all else, I mean that's the reality of business, and believe me I'm not one of these guys who thinks corporate profits are a bad thing - they're a great thing! I'm the most PRO-free market and PRO-capitalistic guy you'll probably meet...
But that doesn't make it any easier for us old-school enthusiasts to watch the company change the way it has... I guess I'm just frustrated, and also amazed that so many people are shallow and pretentious enough to buy a car for status. Obviously pretentiousness has been around forever, but I guess it's even more prevalent in our ultra image-conscious society. Sad.
But that doesn't make it any easier for us old-school enthusiasts to watch the company change the way it has... I guess I'm just frustrated, and also amazed that so many people are shallow and pretentious enough to buy a car for status. Obviously pretentiousness has been around forever, but I guess it's even more prevalent in our ultra image-conscious society. Sad.
Does not surprise me and definitely explains the Cayenne!!!
10-02-2005, 08:41 PM
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The fact that we all love and drive Porsches should unify us. Are we not brothers? Who cares what PCNA's marketing dweebs think?
I've loved these cars since I was eight years old. I worship Dr. Porsche's enduring rear engine design.
The negative energy I'm getting from much of this thread is bumming me out.
I've loved these cars since I was eight years old. I worship Dr. Porsche's enduring rear engine design.
The negative energy I'm getting from much of this thread is bumming me out.
10-02-2005, 09:22 PM
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"After going to Monterey this year for the historic Car Races I feel that most Ferrari and 99% of the Lambo owners are using the car for status or, I am sorry to say, get laid".
And to think I once had a young lady get turned on by my '71 Karman Ghia. Now a new Carrera GT and a "C" note stuck to my forhead wouldn't get me to first base in a Tiajauna ***** house! Aging sucks.
Guess I'll stay in the "enthusiast" group
And to think I once had a young lady get turned on by my '71 Karman Ghia. Now a new Carrera GT and a "C" note stuck to my forhead wouldn't get me to first base in a Tiajauna ***** house! Aging sucks.
Guess I'll stay in the "enthusiast" group
10-02-2005, 11:46 PM
#66
Drifting
Hey Reynard...situation must be pretty hard...this lady on your passenger's seat is a real "dog"!!!!
Just kidding my friend...as far as impressing the ladies...my 1965 356 was a way more efficient than the 993 or 996...or 997...998...999...etc...
Take care...
Just kidding my friend...as far as impressing the ladies...my 1965 356 was a way more efficient than the 993 or 996...or 997...998...999...etc...
Take care...
10-03-2005, 12:39 PM
#67
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Status seekers...
1. Help fund development and make the cars more affordable through economies of scale
2. Help flood the market with excess inventory due to their high turnover rate (witness the raft of 996s on the market, leftover from the dotcom days)
All I care about is...
1. Porsche will still have an "enthusiast" model available, be it a GT3 or a Cayman Club Sport
2. Enough enthusiasts will be around to keep PCNA and its many events live and well
3. PCNA will not degrade into a yuppie wine-and-cheese or more-money-than-brains club - doubtful today but who knows
From a 993 owner perspective, the more Porsche floods the market with (relatively) mass produced cars, the more "unique" my car becomes to the point that it gets more appreciation than the more commonly seen newer models.
1. Help fund development and make the cars more affordable through economies of scale
2. Help flood the market with excess inventory due to their high turnover rate (witness the raft of 996s on the market, leftover from the dotcom days)
All I care about is...
1. Porsche will still have an "enthusiast" model available, be it a GT3 or a Cayman Club Sport
2. Enough enthusiasts will be around to keep PCNA and its many events live and well
3. PCNA will not degrade into a yuppie wine-and-cheese or more-money-than-brains club - doubtful today but who knows
From a 993 owner perspective, the more Porsche floods the market with (relatively) mass produced cars, the more "unique" my car becomes to the point that it gets more appreciation than the more commonly seen newer models.
10-03-2005, 12:48 PM
#68
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Originally Posted by Reynard38
"After going to Monterey this year for the historic Car Races I feel that most Ferrari and 99% of the Lambo owners are using the car for status or, I am sorry to say, get laid".
And to think I once had a young lady get turned on by my '71 Karman Ghia. Now a new Carrera GT and a "C" note stuck to my forhead wouldn't get me to first base in a Tiajauna ***** house! Aging sucks.
Guess I'll stay in the "enthusiast" group
And to think I once had a young lady get turned on by my '71 Karman Ghia. Now a new Carrera GT and a "C" note stuck to my forhead wouldn't get me to first base in a Tiajauna ***** house! Aging sucks.
Guess I'll stay in the "enthusiast" group
I would try 2 C notes on the forehead and a fifty behind each ear.
Also Old Spice reminds them of their Fathers so I would try AXE.
10-03-2005, 05:37 PM
#69
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Originally Posted by texas911
Well since this thread is all about unfounded stereo-types, I applied them to you as well. Just to see how you feel. I see that you got quite offended. Now you see how new Porsche owners feel when someone posts crap like you did about them.
10-03-2005, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Rob993
pcar964 - great post and info. IMHO is right on the money.
Texas911 - I guess the difference is that when the 911/964/993 came out, there were very few cars that could really technically stand next to it for less money. The 997 is a great ride, but there are many cars that meet or exceed it's performance for a lot less money.
This is why Porsche has to sell the name as the enthusiants know their sh*t. How many 997'ers out there think they have dry sump (the way Porsche explains it) when it's really a crock.
Because you are on Rennlist, (as most everyone else on it) says you are an enthusiast (the 993 you have is a giveaway duh!), but you seem to be defending your 997 purchase -Which to me, subject to any future issues, is a great car, but not as great as it could have been, if Porsche were catering even a tiny bit to the enthusiasts
That said any P-car driver would love to have a 997, but us enthusiasts raise the bar higher in our opinions/critisisms. Average guy who buys now does not have a clue of history ..etc. Maybe "Excellence is no longer expected".
Texas911 - I guess the difference is that when the 911/964/993 came out, there were very few cars that could really technically stand next to it for less money. The 997 is a great ride, but there are many cars that meet or exceed it's performance for a lot less money.
This is why Porsche has to sell the name as the enthusiants know their sh*t. How many 997'ers out there think they have dry sump (the way Porsche explains it) when it's really a crock.
Because you are on Rennlist, (as most everyone else on it) says you are an enthusiast (the 993 you have is a giveaway duh!), but you seem to be defending your 997 purchase -Which to me, subject to any future issues, is a great car, but not as great as it could have been, if Porsche were catering even a tiny bit to the enthusiasts
That said any P-car driver would love to have a 997, but us enthusiasts raise the bar higher in our opinions/critisisms. Average guy who buys now does not have a clue of history ..etc. Maybe "Excellence is no longer expected".
10-03-2005, 05:55 PM
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I fail to see how this is different from the 80s when the 911 was THE car for yuppies (I may be wrong, as I was just born on that decade, but that's how I saw it). Face it, there will always be status seekers buying these cars for the badge. It's usually the second generation owners who are the enthusiasts.
Also, I believe Porsche was also trying to capitalize on the yuppie boom back then. They wanted profits just like today. And who can blame them, they are a business, first and foremost.
Also, I believe Porsche was also trying to capitalize on the yuppie boom back then. They wanted profits just like today. And who can blame them, they are a business, first and foremost.
10-03-2005, 06:09 PM
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Again, nothing wrong with profits, and of course there have always been image-seekers buying cars like this - the issue is, the image seekers, the status seekers, and the yuppies, have become the overwhelming MAJORITY of buyers, and that is causing Porsche to shift its focus.
10-03-2005, 06:49 PM
#73
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Originally Posted by rushSC
I fail to see how this is different from the 80s when the 911 was THE car for yuppies (I may be wrong, as I was just born on that decade, but that's how I saw it). Face it, there will always be status seekers buying these cars for the badge. It's usually the second generation owners who are the enthusiasts.
With all due respect...I think you are wrong indeed...the first Porsche drivers were pioneers...people who felt a need for something more than transportation...driving for pleasure instead of moving from point A to point B...I'd guess in the 50s and 60s there were 100% enthusiasts and 0% "status seekers"...in the 70s I'd say 80% against 20%...60% against 40% in the 80s...half and half in the 90s and by the end of the raw driving, racing heritage, 5 instruments panel cars, the "status seekers" became more and more numerous and absolute majority nowadays...the LEASING culture was one of the great contributors as well...
Porsche is no more Dr. Ferry Porsches' company...it's a huge corporation ran by a board of directors with responsibilities with the shareholders...they are doing great business and the stocks are higher and higher...
Porsche is not concerned about enthusiasts because their business is to sell new cars...I'm not concerned about Porsche because I think they made cars only from 1950 to 1998...I'm more concerned about the companies making replacement parts, aftermarket stuff and vendors related in general with the restoration and maintenance of these great machines...
Do your own research...ask any 996 or 997 what are they driving...at least 90% of them don't have a clue what a 996 or 997 is...they are driving 911s... obviously don't ask to people on this forum as we have 100% enthusiasts here...ask on the streets...
Take care...
10-03-2005, 06:58 PM
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I occured to me when reading Rezal's post above that the glut of 996s on the market has more to do with lease returns than the bust of the dot com bubble.
One data point that would be interesting. If a leased 996 was your first Porsche, how many upon the termination of their lease either bought the car outright or leased another? Do the new cars create enthusiasts who want another, or do they leave their drivers uninspired and looking elsewhere for the next great driving (or posing) experience?
The number of multiple Porsche owners on this site suggests somthing about enthusiast behavior. I wonder how that translates to the general population of Porsche drivers.
Just a thought.
One data point that would be interesting. If a leased 996 was your first Porsche, how many upon the termination of their lease either bought the car outright or leased another? Do the new cars create enthusiasts who want another, or do they leave their drivers uninspired and looking elsewhere for the next great driving (or posing) experience?
The number of multiple Porsche owners on this site suggests somthing about enthusiast behavior. I wonder how that translates to the general population of Porsche drivers.
Just a thought.
10-03-2005, 06:58 PM
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The true irony is that based on threads I've read here and in the 997 forum Porsche has attempted to void the warranty of cars that have seen any track time including DEs and autocrosses. It's my belief that Dr. Porsche, instead of blaming the driver, would have been embarrassed if any of his cars would have developed problems at an autocross, even if the dumb driver did over-rev the engine, and would have tried to improve the car instead of voiding the warranty. Porsche is a different company today and I don't know if that's good or bad. If people are buying and enjoying the new Porsches then good for them. After all, cars like Porsches are all about enjoyment. Personally, I'm a bit nostalgic for the "old" Porsche but that's not going to amount to a hill of beans in this world.