Yeap got screwed by the dealer.
05-13-2005, 04:08 PM
#46
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Ding! Winnar!
drnd- give 'em hell. If they don't reimburse you, I hope you take them to small claims court. Since you had ongoing discussions with them, they had every opportunity to dispell your obvious belief that they were holding the car for you. Yet they did not. In many states, you can be awarded damages PLUS attorney's fees, AFAIK.
drnd- give 'em hell. If they don't reimburse you, I hope you take them to small claims court. Since you had ongoing discussions with them, they had every opportunity to dispell your obvious belief that they were holding the car for you. Yet they did not. In many states, you can be awarded damages PLUS attorney's fees, AFAIK.
05-13-2005, 04:13 PM
#47
Skippy
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I don't understand why Paramount didn't give you a call to tell you that they had another customer for the car. Despite all, they just had to do this. They probably received an offer which was (substantially) higher than the agreed price. Bend it or turn it, bottomline is that they had to get in touch.
05-13-2005, 04:41 PM
#48
Track Day
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Nick:
There is also a low mileage (30k) '96 C2S locally (Minneapolis) that is being offered for $50k. I have no affiliation with the seller other than having looked at the car. It is in excellent shape and has never been driven in snow/salt. Let me know if you want the contact info.
Regards
Prabha
There is also a low mileage (30k) '96 C2S locally (Minneapolis) that is being offered for $50k. I have no affiliation with the seller other than having looked at the car. It is in excellent shape and has never been driven in snow/salt. Let me know if you want the contact info.
Regards
Prabha
05-13-2005, 04:56 PM
#49
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Nick,
For what's its worth, if you don't get reimburse, just think of it as part of the acquisition costs. $700 as a percent of a $30-$40K car isn't as significant. Who knows? You may more than make up for the $700 by finding a better deal elsewhere. Statistically, you are more likely to get a lower price by purchasing directly from the owner rather than a dealer. Since you're going to get a PPI anyway, and even a dealer probably doesn't offer a warranty on a 993 given their age, I think you have nothing to lose to buying direct.
What you went through sucks. Hopefully, both parties can come to some resolution. While seeing a public argument on the forums is sometimes interesting (a little like shouting "catfight!") and a learning experience (ie. what not to do), it's not fun to either party involved.
For what's its worth, if you don't get reimburse, just think of it as part of the acquisition costs. $700 as a percent of a $30-$40K car isn't as significant. Who knows? You may more than make up for the $700 by finding a better deal elsewhere. Statistically, you are more likely to get a lower price by purchasing directly from the owner rather than a dealer. Since you're going to get a PPI anyway, and even a dealer probably doesn't offer a warranty on a 993 given their age, I think you have nothing to lose to buying direct.
What you went through sucks. Hopefully, both parties can come to some resolution. While seeing a public argument on the forums is sometimes interesting (a little like shouting "catfight!") and a learning experience (ie. what not to do), it's not fun to either party involved.
05-13-2005, 05:06 PM
#50
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Response to drnd
Nick,
I had asked repeatedly for you to give your flight details to me as well as other information. When were you going to share your flight info with me, after you had arrived at the airport? If you choose not to share your information (ie. Name, Address, Drivers License Information), how do you expect paperwork to be completed for your transaction. With the Privacy Act in place, it isnt allowed to run a credit card given over the phone unless I can verify that it is in fact you and your card. (for your protection). A copy of your license would have worked for this, but you wouldnt do it.
The first time we made contact on this vehicle was actually 4/25/2005 when you called into our facility. Which is we beyond one week I do believe. As far as the leak down and compression test, I informed you of the costs to have both of these tests performed and you opted NOT to have us do them. And yes, you as a buyer have every right to inspect the car before you buy as recommended by your peers. If you are going to have a third party inspect a vehicle, it is your sole responsibility to make any and all arrnagements to have this done.
All of the information I requested from you with the exception of the credit application is all necessary to put any type of deal together. Do you not agree? The reason I sent a credit application as I explained to you already, was to shorten your wait time for the vehicle. If we take a 'draft' type check which CapOne is, we have to wait 10-14 days for all funds to clear our bank account. If that wasnt a problem for you to wait the extra time you could have easily informed me of that. I was looking out for you interest in that case, my apologies for trying to shorten your wait time.
The simple way of solving this was offered to you already, which you have not followed through on yet. My sales manager offered to pay for the $100 fee to change your ticket. Even though you failed to let anyone know of any of your travel arrangements. He asked for you to fax the airline details that proved you had actually forgone the $100 to change the flight. You cant believe that educated people in the world dont know that even a non-refundable ticket can be changed for a nominal fee. We had agreed to take care of that for you. You have not followed through with it, again not our fault that you are continuing to be difficult to deal with and not share requested information.
I had asked repeatedly for you to give your flight details to me as well as other information. When were you going to share your flight info with me, after you had arrived at the airport? If you choose not to share your information (ie. Name, Address, Drivers License Information), how do you expect paperwork to be completed for your transaction. With the Privacy Act in place, it isnt allowed to run a credit card given over the phone unless I can verify that it is in fact you and your card. (for your protection). A copy of your license would have worked for this, but you wouldnt do it.
The first time we made contact on this vehicle was actually 4/25/2005 when you called into our facility. Which is we beyond one week I do believe. As far as the leak down and compression test, I informed you of the costs to have both of these tests performed and you opted NOT to have us do them. And yes, you as a buyer have every right to inspect the car before you buy as recommended by your peers. If you are going to have a third party inspect a vehicle, it is your sole responsibility to make any and all arrnagements to have this done.
All of the information I requested from you with the exception of the credit application is all necessary to put any type of deal together. Do you not agree? The reason I sent a credit application as I explained to you already, was to shorten your wait time for the vehicle. If we take a 'draft' type check which CapOne is, we have to wait 10-14 days for all funds to clear our bank account. If that wasnt a problem for you to wait the extra time you could have easily informed me of that. I was looking out for you interest in that case, my apologies for trying to shorten your wait time.
The simple way of solving this was offered to you already, which you have not followed through on yet. My sales manager offered to pay for the $100 fee to change your ticket. Even though you failed to let anyone know of any of your travel arrangements. He asked for you to fax the airline details that proved you had actually forgone the $100 to change the flight. You cant believe that educated people in the world dont know that even a non-refundable ticket can be changed for a nominal fee. We had agreed to take care of that for you. You have not followed through with it, again not our fault that you are continuing to be difficult to deal with and not share requested information.
05-13-2005, 06:45 PM
#52
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To avoid problems of this nature it is helpful to keep in mind that "if it's not written down it did not happen"
Of course people can enter into oral contracts if they wish; but why expose yourself to having problems with large purchases involving expensive travel and the like.
It is so easy to send a follow up email after every significant contact with your salesperson outlining what was agreed to and stating at the end of your message something like "if the terms I have described above are accurate please comfirm by email."
I ordered a lift last week. Below is what I emailed to the saleperson and his reply. If they don't comply with the outlined agreement I just send copies of the email to the credit card company and the problem goes away. No arguments or explainations necessary.
It's not what happened that counts. It's what you can prove, so make it easy on yourself and make a paper trail.
Mr. Schneider,
I have been trying you today with no answer as well. Anyway, the pricing below is the show promotion I mentioned which I thought you said you or your friend was at so I could extend the promo for you. Besides that, the information below is accurate. Please try me at extension 132 below so we can set this up for you. Thanks.
Marc Sultzer,
I got your message regarding the Portable Mid-rise Lift - PMR-6000-48. I tried to call back but could not get through so I left a message on your voice mail.
I did speak with my buddy and we do want one.
As I understand it the terms for the purchase of the Portable Mid-rise Lift - PMR-6000-48 are as follows:
1-Price is $1500 with no tax or shipping fees,
2-Regular lift pad adapters included,
3-Truck lift adapters are included,
4-Price in 1. includes shipping to a truck terminal in North Charleston, SC and
5-I am responsible for picking lift up at truck terminal.
As I understand it the steel lift itself, which has 6 locking positions, and the hydraulic cylinders attached to the lift are made in China, but the control assembly is made in the United States by Monarch. A control assembly made in the USA is critical to me.
If what I have stated above is accurate please confirm by email and I'll call and give you my credit card number. I do not want to transmit it by email.
Thanks,
Ron Schneider
Of course people can enter into oral contracts if they wish; but why expose yourself to having problems with large purchases involving expensive travel and the like.
It is so easy to send a follow up email after every significant contact with your salesperson outlining what was agreed to and stating at the end of your message something like "if the terms I have described above are accurate please comfirm by email."
I ordered a lift last week. Below is what I emailed to the saleperson and his reply. If they don't comply with the outlined agreement I just send copies of the email to the credit card company and the problem goes away. No arguments or explainations necessary.
It's not what happened that counts. It's what you can prove, so make it easy on yourself and make a paper trail.
Mr. Schneider,
I have been trying you today with no answer as well. Anyway, the pricing below is the show promotion I mentioned which I thought you said you or your friend was at so I could extend the promo for you. Besides that, the information below is accurate. Please try me at extension 132 below so we can set this up for you. Thanks.
Marc Sultzer,
I got your message regarding the Portable Mid-rise Lift - PMR-6000-48. I tried to call back but could not get through so I left a message on your voice mail.
I did speak with my buddy and we do want one.
As I understand it the terms for the purchase of the Portable Mid-rise Lift - PMR-6000-48 are as follows:
1-Price is $1500 with no tax or shipping fees,
2-Regular lift pad adapters included,
3-Truck lift adapters are included,
4-Price in 1. includes shipping to a truck terminal in North Charleston, SC and
5-I am responsible for picking lift up at truck terminal.
As I understand it the steel lift itself, which has 6 locking positions, and the hydraulic cylinders attached to the lift are made in China, but the control assembly is made in the United States by Monarch. A control assembly made in the USA is critical to me.
If what I have stated above is accurate please confirm by email and I'll call and give you my credit card number. I do not want to transmit it by email.
Thanks,
Ron Schneider
05-13-2005, 10:17 PM
#53
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I bought my cabrio from a Porsche dealer. Passed inspection, perfect car, German master tech, blah blah blah. Well someone failed to disclose to me that the clutch was slipping, the convertible top was shrunk and the front right tire had a nail in it. Maybe the "master technician" had a lapse of judgment the time he "inspected" the car ? 
If I knew what I know now I would have never trusted the dealer and would have saved a significant amount of money that this "Porsche dealer experience" cost me 5 years ago.
Bottom line is, like "the other Eric" said, that most of us here we dont trust the dealers exactly because of cases like mine and if you are a honest dealer this is something you have to recognize in this day and age and do your best to work with your customers to put them at ease about their purchase.
Furthermore I'm sorry but if the buyer wanted to pay for the car in full why would he want fill out a credit app? Each time you fill out one of these and ask for financing it goes against your credit score and its not wise to do that! I'm sure you are well informed about that as well so why would you want to do that to someone without real necessity if you were "looking out for your customer" ? Is it because most dealers hate "cash" deals? Is is because you as a dealer make money off the financing deal as well, on top of the money paid for the car?
Finally restricted tickets sometimes dont change even with fees. Its my business to know as I deal with issues like that daily in my line of business. Furthermore why would you want to prolong a flight to a place that you may never have ay intention to visit again? What would happen in a year or so when the ticket will be again expiring?
In short, I hope that you are going to do the right thing and make your customer whole. If that is a price to pay for a lesson learned , well its too small for profit missed in the future, created by a bad reputation.
I also want to thank you for the education you provided me for my future dealings with other dealers. This case for sure is another lesson learned.
If I knew what I know now I would have never trusted the dealer and would have saved a significant amount of money that this "Porsche dealer experience" cost me 5 years ago.Bottom line is, like "the other Eric" said, that most of us here we dont trust the dealers exactly because of cases like mine and if you are a honest dealer this is something you have to recognize in this day and age and do your best to work with your customers to put them at ease about their purchase.
Furthermore I'm sorry but if the buyer wanted to pay for the car in full why would he want fill out a credit app? Each time you fill out one of these and ask for financing it goes against your credit score and its not wise to do that! I'm sure you are well informed about that as well so why would you want to do that to someone without real necessity if you were "looking out for your customer" ? Is it because most dealers hate "cash" deals? Is is because you as a dealer make money off the financing deal as well, on top of the money paid for the car?
Finally restricted tickets sometimes dont change even with fees. Its my business to know as I deal with issues like that daily in my line of business. Furthermore why would you want to prolong a flight to a place that you may never have ay intention to visit again? What would happen in a year or so when the ticket will be again expiring?
In short, I hope that you are going to do the right thing and make your customer whole. If that is a price to pay for a lesson learned , well its too small for profit missed in the future, created by a bad reputation.
I also want to thank you for the education you provided me for my future dealings with other dealers. This case for sure is another lesson learned.
05-14-2005, 12:19 AM
#54
7th Gear
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Ugh, this whole thing brings back memories of what happened to me a couple years ago. I put down a $5000 deposit on a lot to build a house in GA, then made arrangements with the builder to fly down a 2nd time to select options/decor. I get there and find out they've sold my lot to someone else. They refused to make good for it, or even reimburse my $400 airfare.
The many people to whom I've told this story (and the many people they've talked to), will probably forever avoid doing business with Centex homes. I hope it was worth their lousy $400...
The many people to whom I've told this story (and the many people they've talked to), will probably forever avoid doing business with Centex homes. I hope it was worth their lousy $400...
05-14-2005, 05:14 AM
#55
Instructor
Thread Starter
Brent,
Yes I contacted you on April 25, 2005 initially. At that time you said the car was not ready and that you would get back to me once the car was ready and you would have pictures of the car. You emailed me back on May 3, 2005. I still have the email. Would you like me to email it back to you. It stated "sorry for the delay, I had family problems......," "Here are pictures of the car, let me know how you would like to proceed." Exactly 7 days!!!!!!!!!
As far as having the paperwork done. I have never bought a car with the paperwork done before I got to the dealer. How long does it take to write my name and address on a contract. Does it really save that much time?
Why didn't you inform me of the privacy act when you initially took my credit card number? Why now after the fact do you bring this up? Is this your excuse? By the way my business takes credit card payments everyday without having people fax over a copy of their driver license. I also have made payments over the phone and have never needed to fax a copy of my driver license. This does not make sense.
On May 4, 2005 I requested to have compression test and leak down test. You said you would have it done for me on May 5, 2005 even though you were off that day. I called back on May 6, 2005 to find that none of the test was completed as promised. At that time your partner referred me to Jim at an independent shop for PPI. I arranged an appointment with Jim but your partner never followed up with it as offered.
Your sales manager never offered the $100 change of fee. He merely suggested that it may be possible. Not good enough. To me that's still $650 out of may bank account locked in an open ticket that I don't know when I will ever use. I would rather have my money back. Maybe you should check your fax machine. It has all the information regarding my travel plans fax on May 12, 2005 to your GM.
Yes I contacted you on April 25, 2005 initially. At that time you said the car was not ready and that you would get back to me once the car was ready and you would have pictures of the car. You emailed me back on May 3, 2005. I still have the email. Would you like me to email it back to you. It stated "sorry for the delay, I had family problems......," "Here are pictures of the car, let me know how you would like to proceed." Exactly 7 days!!!!!!!!!
As far as having the paperwork done. I have never bought a car with the paperwork done before I got to the dealer. How long does it take to write my name and address on a contract. Does it really save that much time?
Why didn't you inform me of the privacy act when you initially took my credit card number? Why now after the fact do you bring this up? Is this your excuse? By the way my business takes credit card payments everyday without having people fax over a copy of their driver license. I also have made payments over the phone and have never needed to fax a copy of my driver license. This does not make sense.
On May 4, 2005 I requested to have compression test and leak down test. You said you would have it done for me on May 5, 2005 even though you were off that day. I called back on May 6, 2005 to find that none of the test was completed as promised. At that time your partner referred me to Jim at an independent shop for PPI. I arranged an appointment with Jim but your partner never followed up with it as offered.
Your sales manager never offered the $100 change of fee. He merely suggested that it may be possible. Not good enough. To me that's still $650 out of may bank account locked in an open ticket that I don't know when I will ever use. I would rather have my money back. Maybe you should check your fax machine. It has all the information regarding my travel plans fax on May 12, 2005 to your GM.
05-14-2005, 11:02 AM
#56
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In the long run, you win and they lose, as no Rennlist person will ever buy from them in the future. This thread will always exist in the archives and will come to the top of any search performed with their name in it.
05-14-2005, 11:52 AM
#57
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I dunno DC, sounds like a lose-lose to me. Simply poor communication cost 1 buyer a potentially good car, and cost the dealership more than that. Unless someone has bought many cars from me, I won't hold a car without a signed purchase and sales agreement and a deposit reflecting my risk of not having the car available for sale. All terms of the hold need to be written on the P&S, with all the conditions clearly outlined. A hold til date is also written. It may seem like a whole lot of process to hold a car, but it eliminates much of this type of headache. I'm glad to see BCporsche respond to this, as there are always two sides, but this to me seems like an avoidable conflict that is the fault of both parties. FWIW, I may be a bit biased here, as I sell Porsche's, but believe me, I have seen this too many times not to comment.
just my .0002, no affiliation, afaik, fwiw, YMMV
just my .0002, no affiliation, afaik, fwiw, YMMV
05-14-2005, 12:35 PM
#58
Rennlist Member
Well, the item is unique enough that you may be able to get them on determental reliance and seek specific performance. Wow, seeking an order undoing their deal with the other buyer and forcing them to sell it to you. 
05-14-2005, 01:05 PM
#59
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Alfie
I would expect that attitude coming from a dealer (just kidding). I agree. Buyers are very flaky these days. Dealers cannot be expected to hold a car without constant communication between buyer and seller.
I bought my 993 from a Porsche dealer long distance a few years ago. The dealer faxed a contract and requested my SS number, DL, etc despite the fact that I wasn't going to finance it. I had no problem faxing back the requested info since I knew they were going to need to track me down if my cashiers check didn't clear.
I left a deposit and had a PPI scheduled 2 days later. I then received a call saying they sold the car since the car was mistakenly priced too low. After numerous calls to the GM and owner from my atty, they agreed to follow through with the transaction.
I would expect that attitude coming from a dealer (just kidding). I agree. Buyers are very flaky these days. Dealers cannot be expected to hold a car without constant communication between buyer and seller.
I bought my 993 from a Porsche dealer long distance a few years ago. The dealer faxed a contract and requested my SS number, DL, etc despite the fact that I wasn't going to finance it. I had no problem faxing back the requested info since I knew they were going to need to track me down if my cashiers check didn't clear.
I left a deposit and had a PPI scheduled 2 days later. I then received a call saying they sold the car since the car was mistakenly priced too low. After numerous calls to the GM and owner from my atty, they agreed to follow through with the transaction.
Originally Posted by Alfie
I dunno DC, sounds like a lose-lose to me. Simply poor communication cost 1 buyer a potentially good car, and cost the dealership more than that. Unless someone has bought many cars from me, I won't hold a car without a signed purchase and sales agreement and a deposit reflecting my risk of not having the car available for sale. All terms of the hold need to be written on the P&S, with all the conditions clearly outlined. A hold til date is also written. It may seem like a whole lot of process to hold a car, but it eliminates much of this type of headache. I'm glad to see BCporsche respond to this, as there are always two sides, but this to me seems like an avoidable conflict that is the fault of both parties. FWIW, I may be a bit biased here, as I sell Porsche's, but believe me, I have seen this too many times not to comment.
just my .0002, no affiliation, afaik, fwiw, YMMV
just my .0002, no affiliation, afaik, fwiw, YMMV