Advices and testimony on Carbon/Kevlar mods
10-19-2023, 05:49 AM
#1
Advices and testimony on Carbon/Kevlar mods
Hello guys,
I've looked around for some weeks now about improving a 993 with carbon/kevlar body parts and found really few informations and even no testimony at all. I know some people changed their bonnet but is seems that almost nobody has gone further (at least in what I read).
So, here are my considerations : in an era with gas going high in price, environment going low in quality, I may choose to lighten a 993 before improving its power (Btw, here in France, everything is not allowed about improving weight and power). Further than environmental consideration, lightness is king in my opinion.
Now, here are my questions :
- who changed his bonnet, engine lid but eventually also its front fenders, maybe front bumper and rear bumper ? big change in the feelings ?
- has anyone recommendations on carbon/kevlar vs carbon ?
- are there any counterparts doing theses changes, with no money considerations but WITH safety considerations, for street use ?
- a company to recommend more than another ? I saw FVD do quite lot of parts that could be interesting.
Thank you very much for your concern
I've looked around for some weeks now about improving a 993 with carbon/kevlar body parts and found really few informations and even no testimony at all. I know some people changed their bonnet but is seems that almost nobody has gone further (at least in what I read).
So, here are my considerations : in an era with gas going high in price, environment going low in quality, I may choose to lighten a 993 before improving its power (Btw, here in France, everything is not allowed about improving weight and power). Further than environmental consideration, lightness is king in my opinion.
Now, here are my questions :
- who changed his bonnet, engine lid but eventually also its front fenders, maybe front bumper and rear bumper ? big change in the feelings ?
- has anyone recommendations on carbon/kevlar vs carbon ?
- are there any counterparts doing theses changes, with no money considerations but WITH safety considerations, for street use ?
- a company to recommend more than another ? I saw FVD do quite lot of parts that could be interesting.
Thank you very much for your concern
10-19-2023, 07:18 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
Weight is the enemy. The CF and Kevlar is a good start, but it’s not just body panels and carbon to lose weight. The most efficient weight loss is stripping the 75 lb. interior and swapping out the 65 lb. Seats. A lithium battery will save 30 lbs. Remove the useless spare tire and save another 30 lbs.
In comparison, CF fenders only saves a few pounds per fender. But there are savings to be had. And it’s beneath the skin as well. Lighter bumper brackets, deleting the front bumper beam, or better still replacing with FVD Kevlar crash bar. DP Motorsport has CF engine tin that will save you 8 lbs. where it counts. CF doors save some weight, but you should ideally have a cage to run with these.
Now, here are my questions :
- who changed his bonnet, engine lid but eventually also its front fenders, maybe front bumper and rear bumper ? big change in the feelings ? I have a CF bonnet, CF front bumper, and CF rear bumper in my 964. Weight is down to 2,400 lbs., and it’s a big change. You can see my Chronicle on Wilbur for more details, if you dare.
- has anyone recommendations on carbon/kevlar vs carbon ? Kevlar for impact bars (I have the FVD Kevlar impact bars).
- are there any counterparts doing theses changes, with no money considerations but WITH safety considerations, for street use ? Consider adding a light roll bar. It adds some weight, but we’ll worth it.
- a company to recommend more than another ? I saw FVD do quite lot of parts that could be interesting. FVD is awesome. Also check out DP Motorsports. I purchased my CF bumpers from Getty, they do nice work but expect some fettling.
Thank you very much for your concern
In comparison, CF fenders only saves a few pounds per fender. But there are savings to be had. And it’s beneath the skin as well. Lighter bumper brackets, deleting the front bumper beam, or better still replacing with FVD Kevlar crash bar. DP Motorsport has CF engine tin that will save you 8 lbs. where it counts. CF doors save some weight, but you should ideally have a cage to run with these.
Now, here are my questions :
- who changed his bonnet, engine lid but eventually also its front fenders, maybe front bumper and rear bumper ? big change in the feelings ? I have a CF bonnet, CF front bumper, and CF rear bumper in my 964. Weight is down to 2,400 lbs., and it’s a big change. You can see my Chronicle on Wilbur for more details, if you dare.
- has anyone recommendations on carbon/kevlar vs carbon ? Kevlar for impact bars (I have the FVD Kevlar impact bars).
- are there any counterparts doing theses changes, with no money considerations but WITH safety considerations, for street use ? Consider adding a light roll bar. It adds some weight, but we’ll worth it.
- a company to recommend more than another ? I saw FVD do quite lot of parts that could be interesting. FVD is awesome. Also check out DP Motorsports. I purchased my CF bumpers from Getty, they do nice work but expect some fettling.
Thank you very much for your concern
Last edited by Foxman; 10-19-2023 at 07:20 PM.
10-19-2023, 07:39 PM
#4
Thank you for your reply and explanations Foxman !
I had in mind to change the front seats, delete the rear seats, change the battery to lithium.
I keep being mixed feeling about the interior and carpeting as it seems to be a lot of work. Also, I wanna keep my car a street car and don’t get bother by TOO much engine sound (?).
About removing the spare tire and the lightweight crash bar, isn’t it a concern about safety ? I read that the spare tire was a part of the crash-protection. And I have no idea if the crash bar in Kevlar is as protective as the stock one ?
I had in mind to change the front seats, delete the rear seats, change the battery to lithium.
I keep being mixed feeling about the interior and carpeting as it seems to be a lot of work. Also, I wanna keep my car a street car and don’t get bother by TOO much engine sound (?).
About removing the spare tire and the lightweight crash bar, isn’t it a concern about safety ? I read that the spare tire was a part of the crash-protection. And I have no idea if the crash bar in Kevlar is as protective as the stock one ?
10-19-2023, 08:59 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
You could spend big bucks to remove a few hundred pounds, and it will only slightly improve performance (unlikely you’ll feel the difference), and make zero difference in fuel consumption.
Plus, when you eventually sell the car you will discover that your expensive modifications have actually reduced the car’s value. Stock is what people want.
If you want a faster car, buy a faster car. If you want a light car, buy an Elise (I’ve had two). If you want an economical car, buy an economical car (I love my Prius wagon.)
But if you want to make your 993 exactly the way you want, go for it.
Plus, when you eventually sell the car you will discover that your expensive modifications have actually reduced the car’s value. Stock is what people want.
If you want a faster car, buy a faster car. If you want a light car, buy an Elise (I’ve had two). If you want an economical car, buy an economical car (I love my Prius wagon.)
But if you want to make your 993 exactly the way you want, go for it.
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Alyo (10-20-2023)
10-19-2023, 11:34 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
I did this (well continually) on my F355. Carbon seats, removed air bags, dry carbon bumpers, lightweight battery, removed wipers, stripped out frunk.
Brought weight from 3,199 to 2,987 so far. I've since built a titanium exhaust for it and ordered a carbon hood.
Acceleration and handling improvements were certainly noticeable.
1/4 mile before was 12.62 @ 114.15 after weight reduction 12.40 @ 116.83 on the limiter through the traps.
Brought weight from 3,199 to 2,987 so far. I've since built a titanium exhaust for it and ordered a carbon hood.
Acceleration and handling improvements were certainly noticeable.
1/4 mile before was 12.62 @ 114.15 after weight reduction 12.40 @ 116.83 on the limiter through the traps.
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Alyo (10-20-2023)
10-20-2023, 12:24 AM
#7
Rennlist Member
Thank you for your reply and explanations Foxman !
I had in mind to change the front seats, delete the rear seats, change the battery to lithium.
I keep being mixed feeling about the interior and carpeting as it seems to be a lot of work. Also, I wanna keep my car a street car and don’t get bother by TOO much engine sound (?).
About removing the spare tire and the lightweight crash bar, isn’t it a concern about safety ? I read that the spare tire was a part of the crash-protection. And I have no idea if the crash bar in Kevlar is as protective as the stock one ?
I had in mind to change the front seats, delete the rear seats, change the battery to lithium.
I keep being mixed feeling about the interior and carpeting as it seems to be a lot of work. Also, I wanna keep my car a street car and don’t get bother by TOO much engine sound (?).
About removing the spare tire and the lightweight crash bar, isn’t it a concern about safety ? I read that the spare tire was a part of the crash-protection. And I have no idea if the crash bar in Kevlar is as protective as the stock one ?
The question about Spare wheel removalhas been discussed many times, and the crash protection seems to be a bit of a wives tail. Some Theorize it makes the car safer with the spare wheel removed!
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Alyo (10-20-2023)
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10-20-2023, 12:27 AM
#8
Rennlist Member
You could spend big bucks to remove a few hundred pounds, and it will only slightly improve performance (unlikely you’ll feel the difference), and make zero difference in fuel consumption.
Plus, when you eventually sell the car you will discover that your expensive modifications have actually reduced the car’s value. Stock is what people want.
If you want a faster car, buy a faster car. If you want a light car, buy an Elise (I’ve had two). If you want an economical car, buy an economical car (I love my Prius wagon.)
But if you want to make your 993 exactly the way you want, go for it.
Plus, when you eventually sell the car you will discover that your expensive modifications have actually reduced the car’s value. Stock is what people want.
If you want a faster car, buy a faster car. If you want a light car, buy an Elise (I’ve had two). If you want an economical car, buy an economical car (I love my Prius wagon.)
But if you want to make your 993 exactly the way you want, go for it.
10-20-2023, 07:50 AM
#9
Before doing any body carbon/kevlar mod, you should first find a high quality bodyshop specializing in 993s/964s and then ask for their opinion who does it best. They're the ones ultimately modifying and making everything fit and they know who will give you garbage vs high quality. Case in point, I got recommended someone by my body shop here who it turns out does many parts for F1, yachts etc, Ive seen the fenders/rear quarters/roof/bumpers he did for a 964 project and the quality is amazing. You wouldnt know this from browsing their website at all as it's entirely B2B focused.
As for carbon vs carbon kevlar, kevlar gives you some penetration protection and doesnt shatter. BUT, to get the same stiffness you would need to use alot more... Bottom line you can get the same results from using purely carbon fiber (for a given weight), but you really need someone who knows what they are doing.
I think you can use carbon fiber doors on the street, just make sure they are still using the crash bar.
For me personally, one thing I am looking to potentially emulate in the future is what this one guy in Japan does to S2000s. He calls it "carbon doubling" but basically what he is doing is skinning the floor and other stressed parts of the chassis with carbon fiber (plus core) as an alternative way of adding stiffness for the street without a roll cage. He is called Opera Performance (and yes the same Orera S2000 from the original Gran Turismo game. turns out he was friends with the CEO of Polyphony digital and thus the car made it to the game).
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As for carbon vs carbon kevlar, kevlar gives you some penetration protection and doesnt shatter. BUT, to get the same stiffness you would need to use alot more... Bottom line you can get the same results from using purely carbon fiber (for a given weight), but you really need someone who knows what they are doing.
I think you can use carbon fiber doors on the street, just make sure they are still using the crash bar.
For me personally, one thing I am looking to potentially emulate in the future is what this one guy in Japan does to S2000s. He calls it "carbon doubling" but basically what he is doing is skinning the floor and other stressed parts of the chassis with carbon fiber (plus core) as an alternative way of adding stiffness for the street without a roll cage. He is called Opera Performance (and yes the same Orera S2000 from the original Gran Turismo game. turns out he was friends with the CEO of Polyphony digital and thus the car made it to the game).
Last edited by nk993; 10-20-2023 at 07:52 AM.
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Alyo (10-21-2023)
10-21-2023, 09:21 AM
#10
I can vouch for the quality of the FVD parts and they are made by an OEM supplier. Or at least the ones I looked at on their website. I have their bonnet, engine cover and RS replica rear wing. I specifically went with carbon/kevlar for my roof panel for a bit of penetration protection as stated by nk993. Mine has an X section to aid with stiffening.
None of it was cheap and bang for buck do what Foxman recommends and look at the interior. Seats are heavy. Lower dash was surprisingly heavy. Door cards with speakers etc are heavy. Carpet and sound deadening are heavy. Some are easy to remove. Some are not and downright unpleasant such as the sound deadening. Someone with more patience than me did weigh a lot of the individual interior pieces and there is a thread somewhere here.
I went with an Antigravity H5/Group-47 lithium battery and according to their website is a 40lb saving for a drop in and easily reversible mod.
As for whether you should do it and the effect on the value. That depends if you have your car to drive and enjoy, make money (or lose as little as possible) or a bit of both. We're all different in that regard.
None of it was cheap and bang for buck do what Foxman recommends and look at the interior. Seats are heavy. Lower dash was surprisingly heavy. Door cards with speakers etc are heavy. Carpet and sound deadening are heavy. Some are easy to remove. Some are not and downright unpleasant such as the sound deadening. Someone with more patience than me did weigh a lot of the individual interior pieces and there is a thread somewhere here.
I went with an Antigravity H5/Group-47 lithium battery and according to their website is a 40lb saving for a drop in and easily reversible mod.
As for whether you should do it and the effect on the value. That depends if you have your car to drive and enjoy, make money (or lose as little as possible) or a bit of both. We're all different in that regard.
Last edited by JamesP; 10-21-2023 at 09:24 AM.
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Alyo (10-21-2023)
10-21-2023, 09:39 AM
#11
Rennlist Member
Reducing weight by a couple hundred pounds will obviously make a measurable difference in performance, but noticeable? Maybe not.
In the Ferrari example above, after removing 212 pounds, at the end of a quarter mile, the car was measured to be going 116.8 mph instead of 114.1 mph. (It's actually pretty easy to have that much variation just run-to-run for us non drag experts, but I'm assuming those are averaged times taken on days that were identical in temperature and humidity).
My non-calibrated brain and senses certainly wouldn't notice that 2.7 mph difference without a precise speedometer or drag strip slip.
Here's another common sense test before emptying your wallet on carbon fiber parts: If you notice your car being slower when you add a 200 pound passenger (I don't), you will notice it being faster if you remove 200 pounds.
(I'm assuming this is a street car for street use. For track use, every pound counts, and a passenger is very noticeable, even to me!)
In the Ferrari example above, after removing 212 pounds, at the end of a quarter mile, the car was measured to be going 116.8 mph instead of 114.1 mph. (It's actually pretty easy to have that much variation just run-to-run for us non drag experts, but I'm assuming those are averaged times taken on days that were identical in temperature and humidity).
My non-calibrated brain and senses certainly wouldn't notice that 2.7 mph difference without a precise speedometer or drag strip slip.
Here's another common sense test before emptying your wallet on carbon fiber parts: If you notice your car being slower when you add a 200 pound passenger (I don't), you will notice it being faster if you remove 200 pounds.
(I'm assuming this is a street car for street use. For track use, every pound counts, and a passenger is very noticeable, even to me!)
Last edited by centerpunch; 10-21-2023 at 09:41 AM.
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Alyo (10-21-2023)
10-21-2023, 04:39 PM
#12
Guys, thank you very much for each of your contributions.
Foxman, I’m really impressed by the thread you linked and wrote about changing and losing a lot of weight with carpeting, your thread will help me.. Thank you also for linking the thread about the spare tire and it’s safety contribution (or not ; not sure we will never really know ;-)
NK, you have juste incepted in me something I did not know about. Not sure we have someone in Europa doing this but definitely appreciate the story about the S2000 and Gran Turismo game (which I played quite lot many years ago). I started looking around about someone working on the carbon.
INTMD and centerpunch, I also appreciate the testimony on your experimentation.
And James, thank you for the input as, indeed, the FVD part are in my mind.
I agree with you all, there are a lot of things to do to lose weight before changing everything to carbon. My idea is to go quite far in reducing weight, without compromising everything about comfort (about this, I understand we have all our personal balance and compromise). Both because I prefer the agility we can get (at least, I hope to get..) and because here in France, modifying the engine can lead you to lose any insurance cover in case of problem. Well, if I’m honest, too big weight lose can be problematic too but maybe less obvious for an insurance company.
So carbon could be something interesting to investigate :-)
Foxman, I’m really impressed by the thread you linked and wrote about changing and losing a lot of weight with carpeting, your thread will help me.. Thank you also for linking the thread about the spare tire and it’s safety contribution (or not ; not sure we will never really know ;-)
NK, you have juste incepted in me something I did not know about. Not sure we have someone in Europa doing this but definitely appreciate the story about the S2000 and Gran Turismo game (which I played quite lot many years ago). I started looking around about someone working on the carbon.
INTMD and centerpunch, I also appreciate the testimony on your experimentation.
And James, thank you for the input as, indeed, the FVD part are in my mind.
I agree with you all, there are a lot of things to do to lose weight before changing everything to carbon. My idea is to go quite far in reducing weight, without compromising everything about comfort (about this, I understand we have all our personal balance and compromise). Both because I prefer the agility we can get (at least, I hope to get..) and because here in France, modifying the engine can lead you to lose any insurance cover in case of problem. Well, if I’m honest, too big weight lose can be problematic too but maybe less obvious for an insurance company.
So carbon could be something interesting to investigate :-)
