Brake fluid, go cheap or expensive?
07-15-2002, 11:52 AM
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Brake fluid, go cheap or expensive?
Fist, I assume everyone uses DOT 4, not DOT 3 fluid.
Second, I read a post recently on this board where it was stated to use the cheapest brake fluid you can find as it's "all the same". Is there truth in these words? The author stated he used Penske fluid. (I think, but it seems most of you use Super Blue or type 200)
Second, I read a post recently on this board where it was stated to use the cheapest brake fluid you can find as it's "all the same". Is there truth in these words? The author stated he used Penske fluid. (I think, but it seems most of you use Super Blue or type 200)
07-15-2002, 12:06 PM
#3
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George is right. A Dot 4 label only means that the brake fluid meets the minimum DOT requirements. ATE 200 (or Super Blue) exceeds the cheaper Dot 4 fluids with a higher boiling point when fresh, and equally if not more important, it absorbs water more slowly.
07-15-2002, 01:53 PM
#4
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JHB:
The main differences in brake fluids are the boiling points and the one most important to you is the wet boiling point. This denotes the brake fluid's moisture absorbtion characteristics since as this happens, the fluid's wet boiling temperature goes down.
You cannot go wrong with the Ate fluids as they are inexpensive and do last a long time. For this reason, Porsche delivers their cars with Ate Type #200 fluid which is chemically identical to Super Blue, except for color.
Change that fluid once a year and you'll never have trouble with brake system internal corrosion.
FWIW, Ate has discontinued the manufacture & distribution of their Super Blue fluid due to DOT hassles and all you'll be able to get is the Type #200 amber stuff. Its no big deal unless one simply loves that color blue,.....
The main differences in brake fluids are the boiling points and the one most important to you is the wet boiling point. This denotes the brake fluid's moisture absorbtion characteristics since as this happens, the fluid's wet boiling temperature goes down.
You cannot go wrong with the Ate fluids as they are inexpensive and do last a long time. For this reason, Porsche delivers their cars with Ate Type #200 fluid which is chemically identical to Super Blue, except for color.
Change that fluid once a year and you'll never have trouble with brake system internal corrosion.
FWIW, Ate has discontinued the manufacture & distribution of their Super Blue fluid due to DOT hassles and all you'll be able to get is the Type #200 amber stuff. Its no big deal unless one simply loves that color blue,.....
07-15-2002, 04:02 PM
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ATE 200/Super Blue may be popular because it's so cheap compared to those with higher wet boiling points. For example, The ATE (WBP = 392) costs about $0.30 per oz, while Castrol SRF (WBP = 518) costs over $2 per oz.
DOT 5 Spec: Dry BP = 500; Wet BP = 346
Dot 4 Spec: = 446; = 311
Dot 3 Spec: = 401; = 284
<a href="http://www.swedishbricks.net/700900FAQ/Brake%20Fluid%20" target="_blank">www.swedishbricks.net/700900FAQ/Brake%20Fluid%20</a>
DOT 5 Spec: Dry BP = 500; Wet BP = 346
Dot 4 Spec: = 446; = 311
Dot 3 Spec: = 401; = 284
<a href="http://www.swedishbricks.net/700900FAQ/Brake%20Fluid%20" target="_blank">www.swedishbricks.net/700900FAQ/Brake%20Fluid%20</a>
07-15-2002, 06:14 PM
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JHB: One caution - stay away from DOT 5 Silicone brake fluid. It is NOT the same as all the others, and you don't want to go there.
The non-silicone highest performance rating is DOT 5.1, although sometimes the racing 4.0 fluids have better specs than some 5.1 fluids. The old Motul 600 Racing fluid was like that. Dry BP was 575+ if I remember correctly.
The non-silicone highest performance rating is DOT 5.1, although sometimes the racing 4.0 fluids have better specs than some 5.1 fluids. The old Motul 600 Racing fluid was like that. Dry BP was 575+ if I remember correctly.
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07-15-2002, 06:22 PM
#8
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[quote]Originally posted by Geoffrey:
<strong>Steve, say it isn't so...the blue color was cool.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hi Geoff:
Sorry pal, Ate pulled the plug on that stuff and elected to produce the amber version only; Type #200.
Most of the bigger wholesale houses bought all they could, I got 500 cans while its was available. When that runs out,.....its the #200 stuff.
<strong>Steve, say it isn't so...the blue color was cool.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hi Geoff:
Sorry pal, Ate pulled the plug on that stuff and elected to produce the amber version only; Type #200.
Most of the bigger wholesale houses bought all they could, I got 500 cans while its was available. When that runs out,.....its the #200 stuff.
07-15-2002, 07:30 PM
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Interesting posts, I will be using the ATE and the Motive Power Bleeder to do the change (Dealer wanted 240.00 
, I figure for that I get the equipment AND I charge myself at a lower hourly rate <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> )
I was mainly curious about the post regarding all fluid being the same...
, I figure for that I get the equipment AND I charge myself at a lower hourly rate <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> )I was mainly curious about the post regarding all fluid being the same...
07-15-2002, 08:46 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by jhb:
<strong>Interesting posts, I will be using the ATE and the Motive Power Bleeder to do the change (Dealer wanted 240.00 </strong><hr></blockquote>
Even at a dealer, that seems like an outrageous price. Are you sure that was just for a flush/bleed?
BTW, you'll love the Motive bleeder. It's a 15 - 20 minute job once you get used to it.
<strong>Interesting posts, I will be using the ATE and the Motive Power Bleeder to do the change (Dealer wanted 240.00
</strong><hr></blockquote>Even at a dealer, that seems like an outrageous price. Are you sure that was just for a flush/bleed?
BTW, you'll love the Motive bleeder. It's a 15 - 20 minute job once you get used to it.
07-16-2002, 01:37 AM
#11
Is the yearly change still acceptable doing 4-5 DE's in that time period with the ATE fluid (about 5-10k miles/yr w/ street driving)?
And, w/ my motive bleeder, I'm usually able to flush the system with 1 liter of fluid (just barely). Is that about what you all are finding?
Thanks,
David
And, w/ my motive bleeder, I'm usually able to flush the system with 1 liter of fluid (just barely). Is that about what you all are finding?
Thanks,
David
07-16-2002, 04:17 AM
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David,
I think the amount of fluid that you flush is dependent on the type of vehicle that you have. In my case, with a C4S (as with the TT's and regular C4's), one needs about close to 1.5 litres to flush the system. This is what the owner's manual is stating. I'm not sure if this includes the volume that's stored in the system which is only accessible via the "hammer". Non AWD systems take about 1 litre (as stated in the manual).
I've got the Motive bleeder and ATE Blue, but I'm contemplating heavily to go to a 3rd party garage (with access to the Bosch Hammer tool) to completely flush the brake and clutch systems as well as the hidden ABS/ABD circuit. I was quoted $150 for labor to do a full flush, provided I bring the ATE myself; about a 1.5hr job they said.
I think I need the flush, since my clutch pedal is starting to behave a bit strangely: it's slipping a bit close to the end of the pedal travel. Is that a bad slave cylinder? Sorry about being off topic.
*****
I think the amount of fluid that you flush is dependent on the type of vehicle that you have. In my case, with a C4S (as with the TT's and regular C4's), one needs about close to 1.5 litres to flush the system. This is what the owner's manual is stating. I'm not sure if this includes the volume that's stored in the system which is only accessible via the "hammer". Non AWD systems take about 1 litre (as stated in the manual).
I've got the Motive bleeder and ATE Blue, but I'm contemplating heavily to go to a 3rd party garage (with access to the Bosch Hammer tool) to completely flush the brake and clutch systems as well as the hidden ABS/ABD circuit. I was quoted $150 for labor to do a full flush, provided I bring the ATE myself; about a 1.5hr job they said.
I think I need the flush, since my clutch pedal is starting to behave a bit strangely: it's slipping a bit close to the end of the pedal travel. Is that a bad slave cylinder? Sorry about being off topic.
*****
07-16-2002, 10:49 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by David Edwards:
<strong>Is the yearly change still acceptable doing 4-5 DE's in that time period with the ATE fluid (about 5-10k miles/yr w/ street driving)?
And, w/ my motive bleeder, I'm usually able to flush the system with 1 liter of fluid (just barely). Is that about what you all are finding?
Thanks,
David</strong><hr></blockquote>
Depends how long it is between events and how hard the track is on the brakes.
I would (to be on the safe side) at least bleed the calipers after every weekend. Shouldn't need more than a half a liter for that. I have done weekends back to back with my race car and been fine but if it is a race I would bleed before the qualifying. When I used my street car for DE's I would flush at the start of the season and usually bleed twice over the next six months or so.
FWIW I use the ATE blue as well, not found that I need anything "better".
YMMV,
Greg
<strong>Is the yearly change still acceptable doing 4-5 DE's in that time period with the ATE fluid (about 5-10k miles/yr w/ street driving)?
And, w/ my motive bleeder, I'm usually able to flush the system with 1 liter of fluid (just barely). Is that about what you all are finding?
Thanks,
David</strong><hr></blockquote>
Depends how long it is between events and how hard the track is on the brakes.
I would (to be on the safe side) at least bleed the calipers after every weekend. Shouldn't need more than a half a liter for that. I have done weekends back to back with my race car and been fine but if it is a race I would bleed before the qualifying. When I used my street car for DE's I would flush at the start of the season and usually bleed twice over the next six months or so.
FWIW I use the ATE blue as well, not found that I need anything "better".
YMMV,
Greg
07-16-2002, 12:11 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Anir:
<strong>
Even at a dealer, that seems like an outrageous price. Are you sure that was just for a flush/bleed?
BTW, you'll love the Motive bleeder. It's a 15 - 20 minute job once you get used to it. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, I am sure, everytime I ask them "what it costs" I get values higher than what I see here. Does not really matter, I won't go to the dealer anymore, I had two very bad experiences with them an they get over 100.00/hour!
They also quoted about 200.00 for an oil change, and 1k to 2k(intesting range) for 15k Service (I do not know if this is bad, anyone?) Isn't the 15k just an oil change?
<strong>
Even at a dealer, that seems like an outrageous price. Are you sure that was just for a flush/bleed?
BTW, you'll love the Motive bleeder. It's a 15 - 20 minute job once you get used to it.
</strong><hr></blockquote>Yes, I am sure, everytime I ask them "what it costs" I get values higher than what I see here. Does not really matter, I won't go to the dealer anymore, I had two very bad experiences with them an they get over 100.00/hour!
They also quoted about 200.00 for an oil change, and 1k to 2k(intesting range) for 15k Service (I do not know if this is bad, anyone?) Isn't the 15k just an oil change?
07-17-2002, 12:45 AM
#15
*****,
The impression I got from my manual was that ABD circuit was really only a factory on the electric assist pump cars, not the vaccum type like my narrow body. My dealer once told me not to worry about the ABD circuit, so I haven't paid much attention to it.
This may be totally irrelevant, but a ferrari mechanic friend of mine said he's burned up 2 computers on the 355 bleeding the brakes. They are supposed to require that steady stream info in order to bleed, but he now doesn't use the computer. Supposedly, the post 96 cars can only be bled with a computer, which I think is similar to the "hammer".
I've gone 4 DE's on one brake bleed (done10/01), so I think I'll go ahead and do it again. I was aiming for a yearly maintenance schedule, along with the rest of my fluids. But, Better safe than sorry.
David
The impression I got from my manual was that ABD circuit was really only a factory on the electric assist pump cars, not the vaccum type like my narrow body. My dealer once told me not to worry about the ABD circuit, so I haven't paid much attention to it.
This may be totally irrelevant, but a ferrari mechanic friend of mine said he's burned up 2 computers on the 355 bleeding the brakes. They are supposed to require that steady stream info in order to bleed, but he now doesn't use the computer. Supposedly, the post 96 cars can only be bled with a computer, which I think is similar to the "hammer".
I've gone 4 DE's on one brake bleed (done10/01), so I think I'll go ahead and do it again. I was aiming for a yearly maintenance schedule, along with the rest of my fluids. But, Better safe than sorry.
David